Big East Conversation

Discussion in 'Around the League' started by gmoser1210, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    He’s performed right around that program ranking on the whole. And hell, they had a better team than this one just six years ago under a different coach.

    I’m not saying I’m sure he’s a bad coach. I’m saying the collective confidence that he’s a good or even great coach is preposterous. Death, taxes, and the tournament run coronation fallacy. Happens every year.
     
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  2. Mr X

    Mr X Super Moderator

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    It takes time to rebuild especially at low major programs since need get your own players you should be judging off more year in 4 compared to years 1-3 (though with immediate eligibility in transfer portal will probably be more like 2-3 years moving forward) so fact had by far best year in year 4 is positive sign. I'm not saying he's gonna turn Seton Hall into program that's making deep runs in tournament but he should maintain the level of success Willard had. By your logic Boltmann shouldn't have been considered a head good coach pre Butler because he had two losing seasons and his highest Kenpom ranking was only 190.
     
  3. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I don’t know how many times I gotta say it, man - *I’m not saying I’m confident he’s going to be bad.*

    I’m saying the confidence people have that he’s great is rooted entirely in the fact that his team was great for a 9 day stretch in March of his fourth year, and that’s misguided.

    And yes - by my logic, no one should have been confident Holtmann was a good coach based solely on his three years at Gardner Webb - and nobody was!! That’s why he was working as an assistant at Butler and not as the head coach at Seton Hall. That he turned out to be good does not undermine my point.
     
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  4. Mr X

    Mr X Super Moderator

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    I missed where you said in previous post you don't think he's bad coach but those two previous quotes sure seemed to imply pretty strongly he's a bad coach so that was what I was focused on. I agree in general people tend overrate March results especially for mid major coaches I'm just saying my confidence is more tied to him being from the area, what he did as an assistant in Seton Hall/what he did the entire year last year St. Peters vs. what he did when Purdue chocked in a tournament setting (though to be fair the average fan is probably only confident because of what he did last couple weeks which is what you are getting at).
     
  5. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

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    Xavier’s ball movement is impressive. I don’t remember it being this good in conference play. They still can’t shoot but at least it looks good.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  6. Albick

    Albick Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I agree that Shaheen may turn out to be a remarkable coach but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence of it in his head coaching record outside of a two-week run. I made the same point in the Coaching Changes thread after their second tournament win. Like Hinkle, I'm not saying he'll be bad--just that his record as a head coach (other than the past couple of weeks) doesn't seem to warrant the assumption that he will be.

    Here was my post on March 20:

    --------------------
    Holloway is in his fourth season as a head coach, all at St. Peter's. Here is their record under Holloway:

    2019 10-22 (conference: 6-12, 11th (last) place)
    2020 18-12 (14-6, 2nd place)
    2021 14-11 (10-8, tied for 5th place)
    2022 21-11 (14-6, 2nd place)

    Overall record: 63-56 (conference: 44-34)

    This season, the team was 2-5 in nonconference games (including one win over a non-D1 team). Their losses were to VCU, St. John's, Providence, Stony Brook (Kenpom 216) and an 11-point loss to St. Francis NY (322). In the conference regular season, they were 14-6, finishing in second place, three games behind Pitino's Iona team (17-3). They lost in conference play twice each to Iona and Siena (Kenpom 240) and once each to Canisius (261) and Rider (226).

    Going into the conference tournament, their record was 16-11. They've had a nice five-game run, winning their conference tournament (without having to face Iona again) and a couple of great performances in their NCAAT games against Kentucky and Murray State.

    Based solely on his record, Holloway seems like a very solid mid-major coach. But for his team's performance in two games this past week, it is unlikely that his name would have shot to the top of any high-major coaching lists. A high-major AD looking at him has to ask himself: which is more representative of Holloway's coaching abilities: the two games this week or the previous 117 games?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2022
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  7. Mr X

    Mr X Super Moderator

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    I think both you and Hinkle are massively underrating how damn hard it is to win at St. Peter's given their resources. Jeff Goodman ranked St. Peter's as the hardest job in the MAAC in 2019 https://watchstadium.com/maac-basketball-coaches-rank-the-best-jobs-in-the-conference-01-18-2019/ with the worst budget and facilities.

    https://www.si.com/college/2022/03/25/saint-peters-cinderella-march-madness-daily-cover


    The article and twitter thread do a far better job showing how awful the situation is (ex. they only have two paid assistant coaches job and unpaid DOBO, no practice facility and they have to share court for everything including community events, can't even play music in weight room since next to a normal classroom etc).

    St Peter's should be at best a bottom half team in the MAAC but really closer to a perennial bottom feeder program in the MAAC even compared to a Canisius or a Rider so fact Shaheen after rebuilding year one finished in the top half with two second place finishes in three year span is impressive. This is personal preference but when evaluating mid major coaches (or just coaches in general) I would rather have guy that overachieves and does more with less than a guy compared to someone with better record but more resources/tradition relative to peers in their conference.
     
  8. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

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    That’s a hell of a response. I appreciate the time you spent getting articles and resources. We’ll done sir. I knew St Peters was a **** hole but didn’t realize it was that bad. All I knew was that he got maac COY in his 2nd year and he set program records in wins and performance but just figured he got a garbage team and turned them mediocre.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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  9. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,417
  10. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    $9,627
    Hey NCAA, I know you gave me 5 full years. But any way I could get a 6th year?

     
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  11. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

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    LOL! “Recent injury”. The dude played and started in 33 games this year. What a clown.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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  12. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    I think that is a troll account and not actually true
     
  13. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I would hope so. I saw it was retweeted by HolyLand of Hoops and was tool lazy to look into it much.
     
  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I think the point is that a good coach should be better at winning than previous coaches were.

    He wasn’t better at winning with the exception of March 2022.

    That doesn’t mean he is a bad coach, but inferring he is a good coach is unjustified.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  15. Albick

    Albick Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $2,646


    If this is true, 1/3 are from Butler: Bryce, Simas, and Mike Parker.
     
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  16. butlerguy03

    butlerguy03 Well-Known Member

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    Some interesting tweets and smoke coming from around Gonzaga today.
     
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  17. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Could you be more specific or link one of the Tweets you're referencing? I don't really feel like going hunting based on some vague message board posting.
     
  18. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    Still only think this is a rumor, but there are a surprising amount of speculation that this thing actually has traction...
     
  19. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    they are every where, just search Big East on twitter...
     
  20. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,417
    Rumors of Gonzaga joining BigEast


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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