Brunk to transfer.

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ConnersvilleBulldog, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

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    Bingo...they are going to smear Butler as much as they can when the real truth was as soon as Crean was gone, Joey wanted IU. Joey always wanted IU. Butler was his second choice and then the coaching change happened-he was definitely out. But they're going to push that this is all on Butler when the truth is, as soon as a spot was opened for him at IU and his people were told, he was committed to IU and not Butler. That isn't a good look, so they'll push and paint the bullpoop.
     
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  2. Shimmy

    Shimmy New Member

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    Was also perusing the IU boards out of curiosity. They're really talking this up and even salivating at the prospect of him taking on Matt Haarms.

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  3. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

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    No, the alternative doesn't have to be zone. You do realize that defense can dictate what an offense does. And often does. It's not a one way street. Sadly, as bad as we were on the defensive end (and rebounding) where were the adjustments (not tweaks, but major changes in our approach as we continued to get exposed)? Opponents spread Butler's straight up man to man defense every single game because they could. Too predictable. Too unimaginative. Too slow. Wide open lanes. Made the pick and roll easy. They dictated. We followed. You're making this whole discussion much, much more difficult than it is. Outside of a couple of guys no one on Butler could defend one on one effectively. Besides, so many kids today at this level are much too athletic on the offensive end and when they have the ball, they dictate the action. After the first move (step), you could be toast. Especially Butler defenders. Playing straight up man is somewhat of a gamble because you are assuming your players can defend their man without help. With Butler's slow, poor defenders, but with some size, maybe, just maybe the defensive approach should have been adjusted to instead protect the paint all at all costs. More of a help defense. When they score, it will have to be over the top. Pack the paint, pressure on the ball on the perimeter and in the passing lanes. Putting pressure on the ball makes it a whole lot more difficult for an offense do what they want to do. We rarely, and I mean rarely put pressure on the ball. We reacted and didn't dictate. Would have been interesting to double team the ball on the perimeter (with the paint protected). If we did nothing else then pack the paint and put pressure on the ball I know we would have been a hell of a lot better on defense. But how would that work if we don't have Tacko Fall? Good lord. I didn't say block every shot. But wouldn't a 6-11 presence (along with weak side defender in or near the paint) offer some deterrent for taking in there?

    Butler made it easy for their opponents because they allowed themselves to be dictated to. Of course opponents are going to score. So if you can't stop them, shouldn't you try to make it as difficult as you can to score? Sorry, I didn't see any appreciable adjustments on D, even down the stretch where we were even worse, regardless of those insightful observations by dawgs2014. As stated my preference would be to try and score over me, rather than going through me. You're not going to hold anyone to zero. Rather give up the 15 or 20 foot shot rather than a 5 foot shot or a layup. But that's just me. And how many times did our defender get backed down in the paint with no help? Game after game after game. The whole protect the paint principles and approach is a la Texas Tech, through old IU and Bobby Knight. Virginia was just great going over the top in that game. Sh!t happens.

    Sadly, you don't play the game on a message boards or with metrics. Best argument for my case for my posting and my opinion......16 - 17. And let's not forget, a really ugly and often embarrassing 16 - 17. And the fact that Dawgs2014 disagrees with my posting. I told this guy over a year and a half ago he might want to consider toning back his comments because he was embarrassing himself with his real lack of basketball knowledge and his know-it-all, condescending attitude. The same guy who didn't know the difference between going 1 or 1 on your defender within the regular flow of the offense and actually getting isolated on a called set play, so that you can more effectively take your man 1 on 1. Called me an idiot on that one. And when I tried to point out the subtle difference to him, and there is (I've actually done both in a real game), he still called me an idiot. Same guy who laid in to me when last summer I suggested that Fowler, who did have some fair basketball skills, especially shooting the ball (this at the time everyone was suggesting Thompson go to the shot doctor....remember that last summer?), might want to consider going to a MMA class to toughen up because he was so soft. A little tongue in cheek suggestion on my part, but still a viable consideration IMO. Softest 6 - 10 guy I have ever seen. I made my comment based on seeing big men getting beat up with a long broom at big men camps in order to toughen them up through contact. Yep, Mr. Know-It-All Basketball Dawgs2014 laid in to me again, called me ignorant because he retorted MMA was strictly a "defensive" skill set and it would not help Fowler at all. Of course, all of this was prior to us learning about or knowing about the emergence this past season of Michigan's Iggy Brazdiekas, the ultra tough, high energy freshman who was all Big Ten second team this past year. The guy who credits all that on-court demeanor and hard nosed toughness to his father, an MMA instructor.

    Remember too, Dawgs2014 told us all season that in spite of what our eyes were telling us, Fowler was a gem at the 5 and that if the rest of us didn't see that then we were all too stupid because we really didn't know what to look for. So when Dawgs2014 now states that my suggestion of sending an ultra slow guy like Brunk out 30 feet from the hoop to defend makes no sense, and he states..."LOL exactly......it's called defense," then I'm pretty damn sure I'm on to something. When I said we should have kept Brunk in the paint and around the basketball, I didn't say "nail" him in the paint. DUH. But close to it. He sure as hell isn't doing us much good that far out with mostly a passive defense presence and way out of rebounding position. Again, predictable. In all seriousness, Dawgs2014, continue on with your posts. Honestly, I do find them entertaining. And the arrogance even more so.
     
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  4. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

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    Forget about him, Butler will see him in two years at the Crossroads. How much game time in Bloomington, who knows!
     
  5. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    If we keep him in the paint or close to it that is by definition a zone.

    If we’re not playing zone he has to leave the paint to be prepared to guard ball screens. There is no alternative that doesn’t leave at least one offensive player wide open for a shot.

    The predicament I’m explaining is part of the reason that ball screen offenses have gained so much popularity. The demand precise defensive execution to prevent shots opening up and you have multiple options to counter however a defense is guarding it.

    It’s also why you can’t play just one player in a zone and the rest man. The offensive team will screen the man offense and there will be no one there to guard the ball. That will allow either the offensive player to get into the paint at full speed to attack a slow defender (whose man will also be rolling to the paint as a passing option) which allows basically a guaranteed layup OR you have to have another defender leave their man on the perimeter which allows an open 3 point attempt.

    I’m not sure the relevance of metrics to this discussion as I’m presenting a strictly x’s and o’s explanation.

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    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  6. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    The only way to prevent a pick and roll as a defender is to get your hip on the screener’s outside hip and skinny up to get in between the screener and the ball handler. This requires incredible instincts, communication, and poor execution by the ball handler and screener. Overplaying also runs the risk of refusing the ball screen or the screener slipping. This is what you want to do as a guard, but cannot be relied upon as proper use of the screener is all that’s needed to get a foul call or a 5 on 4 opportunity.
    Against Creighton we switched everything after getting completely destroyed on screens against Georgetown. We periodically did that the rest of the season and people hated it. We also saw more zone. Additionally our ball screen coverage when Joey came in the game changed as well, he would show, soft hedge or switch, where as Nate hard hedged and recovered most of the time.

    Wide open lanes would be created by poor help side positioning. The defense can influence this with multiple great shooters, but never dictate it. Positioning is 100% a choice and game planning function. Far more often however our failures could be attributed to helping too much than too little. (Except Joey-Joey helped too little)


    Completely false. Man to man defense is like the offensive line in football, it’s 100% a team effort and there is always help if executed correctly and will fall apart if one person falls asleep.

    Yes ball pressure was an issue. You can’t both completely pack the paint and put ball pressure on the ball. To put pressure on the ball means your defenders one pass away meaning they have to positioned in the gap (think passing lanes) to jump (closeout) to the catch. They can’t get there if they are packing the paint. The passing lanes are also not in the paint so you are asking for your guards to be guarding multiple places and conflicting strategies at once here.

    Yes-this would be a trapping zone, and it would offer a deterrent to going into the paint because the alternative is having 2-3 open 3’s to choose from. I don’t know if our zone was more effective but I know that in general zones are less effective, so it’s hard to say that you know we would have been better when what you’re suggesting (zone) is something we tried and appeared to be bad at.

    Still not sure what you really mean when you say that they allowed the offense to dictate how they guarded, but Now your stance is that Butler was not trying their best to stop the opponents from scoring?

    As mentioned previously-we adjusted consistently throughout the second half of the season. Our problems were that we failed to expedite the adjustments much more so than we failed to make adjustments.

    I think you’re saying that you want the offense to take contested twos. That’s what our defense was designed to do. Hard hedging takes away the three, the drive and tries to take away the roll, ICEing the p&r (used for side ball screens) entire goal is to force the offense to pass and reset or take a long two, and the soft hedge/show is designed to make it easy to take away the roll or drive at the expense of getting to the basket. Everything we did was designed to put the offense in the least advantageous position that we were capable of, we were just bad at execution.

    How did metrics get involved here? And in ‘17 we went 25-9 and went to the sweet 16 while sweeping Nova and X.


    Sir, this is a Wendy’s.



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  7. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    That should last about a game. Poor foot speed and awareness. Not a shot blocker.
     
  8. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    If IU fans think they’re nationally relevant thinking Joey is a great defender for his entire tenure isn’t that much of a stretch.


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  9. BulldogsFTW

    BulldogsFTW Active Member

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  10. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    Is there a good team that predominantly runs a zone base defense besides Syrcause?

    I just don't see why we should change our entire defensive scheme because one player (here Brunk) is poor defensively, when it's not like he's Markus Howard on the offensive end and worth hiding his defensive shortcomings.

    Matt Howard and Tyler Wideman were great defensively at hedging. If Brunk can't play man to man defense effectively, bye... have fun at IU.
     
  11. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Washington does but their coach is a Boeheim guy.

    Synergy has it broken down and a complete rankings of zone %.


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  12. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Of course. But it was coming from a BU fan, not camp Joey. They made it sound like he was asked to leave—which again I don’t believe is the case.
     
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  13. BulldogsFTW

    BulldogsFTW Active Member

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    Ah, knowing that context they could just be wrong or could have heard some outside chatter. I agree that I don't think Joey was being forced out.

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  14. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

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    There are some in Brunk's camp that kinda sorta implied he was pushed gently out the door. A BU fan could have seen that and run with it believing "yes, he must have been forced out" which obviously wasn't the case.
     
  15. tedfrye

    tedfrye Active Member

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    Joey Brunk says he will not walk in graduation ceremonies @ Butler. I thought your education was to be more important than sports.


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  16. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    He’s still graduating, he’s just not putting the cherry on top of the sundae. Sitting through my commencement ceremony might have been my worst four hours at Butler, I’d do the same thing as him if I could go back again.


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  17. BulldogsAllTheWay

    BulldogsAllTheWay Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, not walking is just smart.
     
  18. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Walking would be awkward I’d guess. They always put the seniors together in a photo with the coaches and send out on sm. Not to mention I wouldn’t put it past some people to boo.
     
  19. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    From an IU site:

    "I saw how I would fit in," he said. "I think we'll be able to play two bigs together. I'll be able to play with my back to the basket, but also stretch the floor a little bit. I can show that I'm a basketball player, and not just a back-to-the-basket guy."

    Huh.
     
  20. MasterSplinter

    MasterSplinter Active Member

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    Isn't it nice to have a Butler University graduate and amateur athlete get berated like he was...(I was going to include some pro athlete but realized it doesn't even need a comparison because it's just ridiculous on so many levels and that it will never resonate with many on this board). Another indication we've gone full high major and worship all things at the altar of the NCAA.

    Good luck in all things Joey.



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