• This Event was settled Jan 13, 2019
  • This Event is over and no longer taking wagers
Wagers:
13
Total Staked:
$4,851
Paid Out:
$2,179
Jared Grubbs

Butler Bulldogs (10-6) at Xavier Musketeers (10-7) - 1/13

Jared Grubbs, Jan 11, 2019

Settled
  1. xfan1989

    xfan1989 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $512
    Honestly Butler had a good game plan and executed well yesterday. I haven't seen enough of butler this year to have much of a comment beyond that....not surprisingly with X being trash I've taken a bit of a step back from CBB in general.

    But I think Brunk/Baldwin/Tucker all looked really good. Brunk had a bit of a tough go with the Hankins/Jones combo, but he's had a huge transformation from a year ago- you can already see where he'll contend for an all league guy by his senior year.

    I think what might be difficult for some of you- is Butler has always been one of those teams where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I think largely that was due to great coaching and getting the most out of your players. Stevens and Holtman were obviously two very special coaches. LaVall isn't there- but that doesn't mean he can't be a very good coach in the Big East.

    The most concerning thing to me would be him getting absolutely outcoached in the final 4 minutes, cintas center helped for sure....but this X team is not good. And to come back from down 10 under 4 minutes left is a tall order. JP and Blueitt aren't coming in and hitting 3 3s anymore...but if he can look in the mirror and acknowledge his mistakes and learn from them there's nothing to say he can't improve as a coach. That paired with the obvious upgrade in talent he's after and there's no reason to think he can't keep the balling rolling with how butler has been the last 4 years.
     
  2. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,650
    I plan to spend the rest of the season and off season watching individual player growth and development going into next year and less time obsessing over the actual wins and losses this year.

    I still believe outside of KB and PJ and to a lesser extent AT and McD we don't have a lot of experience to put on the floor. CD, Golden and Tucker need a lot more time and experience playing at this level.

    We lose Fowler and PJ and gain Nze, Hastings, Malloy and Battle. Those four to me are the 2019 class. If LJ can't make that work then Collier needs to do something then.
     
    dippper61 and SpartanDawgs like this.
  3. knobcreekfan

    knobcreekfan Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $444
    I would encourage people on this board to read the annual audit and Form 990 for Butler. People assume Butler is sitting on a pile of cash and is just too cheap to spend it. Not true.

    If you review the reports for the fiscal year ended 5/31/2017 you will see;

    Holtmann made $1.75 million. Not the $1.0-$1.2 he claimed in news reports. I know that is still not O$U money, but it would put us in the ballpark of Minnesota, Gonzaga, Clemson, Wake Forest, Xavier and Georgia Tech.

    Athletic revenue was $12 million while expenses for intercollegiate athletics was $17.3 million. Athletics operated at a $5.3 million dollar loss.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    bmradio99 likes this.
  4. rperk

    rperk Member

    Money:
    $85
    Set up a go fund me page on FB to get a better coach

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  5. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,493
    So I guess what most are saying is we need an infusion of talent and a much better roster and more time in order to overcome the ineptitude of coach. 20 years of major college basketball experience and at this point a shelf full of "bad, bad" basketball tape on his teams, don't you think he would have changed his appoach by now if he knew how? The continuation of the Baldwin Hero Ball Offense is just jawdropping. Yes. Sometimes. But not to the point of being counterproductive. Jordan is here for the foreseeable future (years, not weeks). Have to live with that fact. Think it would be much easier and a whole lot quicker fix to make some "responsibility" changes within coaching staff. Barry? Someone cashing a Butler paycheck has to know good, fundamental, smart basketball, like how to run an effective offense, good shot selection, rebounding, getting to the foul line, on and on. These players need to be coached. This team has more than enough talent to make the NCAA Tournament. Major change is needed, and quickly. Not going to fire the coach. And adding a couple of better players down the line won't do it either. Improvement has to start at the top, or damn close to it.
     
  6. ButlerNut

    ButlerNut Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $4,184
    Finished the game last night. Slept on it. At a loss for what to post. Haven't read all the posts here, but I am sure there are some that are calling for Jordan to be fired, calling for Fowler to be benched, and some deciding that the team won't even make the NIT and may not win another game this season.

    All I want to say is that:
    I saw Brunk get HAMMERED and it was called a block
    I saw Brunk get called for a travel without moving
    I saw X get into the bonus before the first media timeout of the 2nd half
    I saw Fowler miss a bunny
    I saw stepback fadeaway shots that should have been "attack and get fouled" shots from PJ and KB
    I saw some really good defense and some really good decision making as well
    KB did a much better job of running through the offense instead of being stagnant
    Team did not respond well in the last 4 minutes

    And for the love of everything Butler. Can the Dawgs just win every game now...so TFP won't come on here and post?
     
    Tentozen and pjohnsto2003 like this.
  7. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,589
    I agree with what you said here in terms of single game prep. They did a good job scouting and implementing a game plan. If this one game we’re a one off loss, I’d still be heartbroken, but I wouldn’t consider it at all an indictment of coaching.

    Today was not a one off though.
    -slow start on the road (again) we scored 15 points in the first 16 minutes and 11 seconds today. 11 points in 11 and a half minutes at SH.14 points in 17 and half minutes at Florida. 4 point in first 4 minutes against IU.

    - Scoring droughts-6 minutes and 44 seconds yesterday. 2 points in 7:51 against seton hall. 8:51 0 points against Florida. 2points in 4 minutes second half vs IU, separate instance of 0 points in 5 minutes 12 seconds vs IU. 2 points in 11:36 against SLU. 4 points in 4 points in 9:45 against Dayton.

    -Bad close on the road -we scored 5 points in the closing 5:21 today. 6 points in the last 5:37 against seton hall. 7 points in last 9:31 vs IU.

    We repeatedly have horrendous starts and horrendous closes. Those are the two parts of the game that are most directly influenced by coaching imo, be it on a one game basis or a cultural basis.

    The games that we have not started badly we have had a drought that approaches two full media timeouts. Is it coincidence that it happens every time we play somewhere new? I don’t know.

    In late game situations we don’t seem prepared for the unexpected. We’re not tough, we don’t adjust well, and we don’t look in control. It seems we freeze up, not get tough. End of games scenario need to be second nature, so that if you lose, it’s a result of the other team playing ungodly well all of a sudden. “Culture wins” are a totally foreign concept right now.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    KCbufan21, UDDawg and estar20dawg like this.
  8. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,650
    I knew we were going to lose when Brunk went to the free throw line for two shots. His eyes were like the proverbial deer and headlights. This was inexperience personified.
     
  9. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $792
    I think Baldwin is good enough to be a #1, go-to guy, whatever you want to call it.

    Problem is, he doesn't have Kelan Martin to complement him or vice versa.

    Last year in the tournament, Matt Painter had some quote where he knew his Purdue defense had to take away either Kelan Martin or Kamar Baldwin. They chose Baldwin. I think good coaches can "take away" or at least make life awfully tough for one star player.

    That being said, I'd like to see us run an offense with more off the ball movement and screens, like the Princeton offense, to help manufacture points. We only have 1-2 guys who can create their own shot (Jorgensen on a good day), and the "stand around offense" has looked stagnant at times.
     
  10. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

    Money:
    $72
    Apologies for the length of the post...
    Stevens' and Holtmann's teams had some pretty epic collapses, and Stevens' were with about the same level of player they have now going up against much weaker competition. In fact I would say that as great of a coach as Stevens was, he never had to get through a conference season in which he had an individual talent deficiency like Miller, Holtmann and Jordan have had to. In the Horizon League, Butler pretty much always had the most talented lineups once Bruce Pearl left UWM.

    Holtmann's teams blew plenty of leads and didn't even show up for Xavier games at Hinkle at times. He also had older rosters all 3 seasons and was smart to supplement his roster with older transfers in his Sweet 16 year at Butler. Right now Butler has a relatively inexperienced roster, and the majority of the experience they do have (Jorgensen, Fowler, McDermott, Baddley) are role players that haven't been able to bring positive contributions consistently. Good Butler teams of the pasts had multiple studs who were older and performed well more times than not, including last year's squad. I love what these guys can bring to the table, but I don't think Brad Stevens himself could figure out a consistent line-up rotation with this group.

    Disagree that yesterday's collapse had much to do with coaching. Xavier had a 2.2% chance to win the game when they mounted their comeback. Stuff happens. Butler had a 0.5% chance of winning when they came back vs OSU last season, and in no way do I think Jordan "outcoached" Holtmann in the final 4 minutes and overtime. In fact I'd say Holtmann had a great gameplan and stuff just went sideways down the stretch. Just like I'd say that Jordan and his staff had a great gameplan together yesterday and a bunch of stuff happened down the stretch (including a 20% 3 point shooter hitting a 3, 3 missed free throws, a turnover by Baldwin on a fast break and a turnover by Tucker) that had very little to do with coaching. Middle school teams know how to break a press, but sometimes it doesn't happen. Stevens famously got waxed by VCU and he knew a press was coming. Butler nearly gave up a huge lead to Wisconsin in the 2011 tournament when they pressed, so why wasn't Butler prepared for that then, especially considering they had an NBA player and the best 4 year player in Butler history (IMO) on the roster?

    If you want to get on Jordan and his staff about the starts to the Florida and Georgetown game, I can't say I disagree with you. The team, especially defensively, looked discombobulated. Dayton I think was just more physical and it threw the team off (and some of that could be coaching for not preparing them better for that), but they responded well against MTSU and Florida. SLU (at least at the start) and Seton Hall, the team was getting good shots, they were just missing them. That happens too.

    Overall, I just wish as fans we didn't need to be constantly gratified because we choose to root for Butler. But we do apparently. Every loss is not an indictment of the players or the coaches. There are times in which I get on the players too much for their performances, and for that I'm sorry and will try to be better than that. Sometimes programs and teams have tough seasons for one reason or another. Maybe it's roster chemistry, maybe it's talent, maybe it's coaching. But to advocate for sweeping changes to the coaching staff when that's precisely what contributed to Butler landing the 9th, 7th, 9th and 9th best recruiting hauls in the Big East the last 4 years seems short sighted, but maybe that's just me. IMO, both the players and coaches NEED to be given latitude and time to grow. Sometimes basketball seasons aren't fun to suffer through as fans, but it's far worse for the guys in the trenches who actually play and coach the games. I don't enjoy coming to the board during seasons like this, but I'm also not going to stop coming here to discuss or stop watching the team I root for. Rant over, carry on.
     
  11. OldSchoolDawg1983

    OldSchoolDawg1983 Active Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $345
    Yes; in the 2015-16 season, the Holtmann-coached Dawgs blew a 13-point lead in the last 2:37 at Georgetown, having to win in OT 90-87. In 2016-17, the Dawgs led Seton Hall in the home season finale 57-47 with 7:02 to play.......and lost 64-70.
     
  12. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,650
    It's easy to play arm chair coach after a game. Sure I wish he hadn't called time out with four minutes left and pressured the shooters more but I bet LJ and staff have second guessed themselves a lot this past week. Most of us learn best from our mistakes.

    Off the slamming of the coaches and players may be beneficial to the team and us fans.

    One thing I can't understand is why teams don't know how to run 2 on 1 and 3 on 2 fast breaks. Maybe the game passed me by but it seems to be a lost fundamental. This is not just Butler but most every team doesn't do it right.
     
  13. BoyGeoff

    BoyGeoff Active Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $202
    Well said! A


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    Clevedog likes this.
  14. wazthree

    wazthree Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,917
    People easily forget the bad in the past and only remember the good.

    Holtmann blew many games at Butler...he lost to Indiana State who was ranked about 200. Lost to a bad Marquette team and a bad St. John’s team.

    Stevens is an amazing coach and lost at Youngstown st in 2011. Lost to wright state multiple times. The one year in the a10 were slaughtered by VCU and Slu .


    Coach Jordan is going to be a great coach. Cut him some slack, the team is still kenpom#41 out of 343 schools, get a grip on reality.


    It is his second year and he is the 4th coach at butler in the last 5 years. He will bring consistency and success. Hopefully he sticks with Butler for a long time and I am proud he is the Bulldogs coach. You losers that want him fired should get a life or new hobby because this is never going to be Kentucky or Duke.

    Stop obsessing over student athletes and I am proud to say that’s what Butler’s players are and always have been.

    You should be embarrassed for the way you talk about the team and really should apologize for being such clowns about players giving their all for our university.
     
  15. pharmtard09

    pharmtard09 Active Member

    Money:
    $19
    I may be totally wrong, but I'm really thinking that the lack of Senior leadership is a big reason for these ups and downs. I don't know if NF and PJ are the team captains, but I really don't see those guys being the on court leaders this team needs. Nate cant slam a wide open dunk, how can he put his foot up Kamar's butt for his hero ball antics?

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  16. pharmtard09

    pharmtard09 Active Member

    Money:
    $19
    I forget which year it was but Holtmann had a 10 point 1st half lead that always evaporated. We'd be up 25 to 15 and next thing you know it's 30 to 30

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  17. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $7,472
    Note 3 has BU at $283 million in investments (e.g. mutual funds, bonds, hedge funds, etc.). Let's be honest - we could pay for a better basketball coach if it was deemed a priority.
     
  18. knobcreekfan

    knobcreekfan Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $444
    They are investments. A smart financial person will use the earnings off the investments to pay for recurring expenses. Not burn investments to pay for recurring expenses.

    This is an institution of higher learning. Not a sports franchise.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  19. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $6,277
    The suggestion that Butler could or should burn part of the capital in its endowment on a basketball coach is quite stunning.
     
  20. Tentozen

    Tentozen Active Member

    Money:
    $538
    Thanks for putting the right perspective on things. I was just a reader of this board, and the old one, for years, and used to get really disgusted by the negativity when things weren’t going well.
    But I started posting in the last year, and just realized that I have found myself falling in to some of the some irrational complaining that I thought was ridiculous in the past.
    With everything that has happened in the last few years, some tough times should have been expected, and we are seeing a little bit of that now. Seems like there was a lot of talk at the beginning of the season, that this year would be just okay, and next year would be the year. Still think that is the case. Although currently on the bubble, still think with further development of Brunk and Tucker, a bid is possible. And with only losing NF and PJ, next year still looks very promising.
    As others have said, Jordan isn’t going anywhere, and I think his Michigan background is going to pay dividends in the long run.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     

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