Butler Bulldogs (12-8) vs Creighton Bluejays (11-8) - 1/25

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by Lukas Harkins, Jan 24, 2019.

  1. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Right. And we aren’t good enough to play 4 on 5 and that’s what we’re forced to do.

    I really don’t care if he misses every single time, if he’s open he needs to let it fly. At least make them think about closing out on you.


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  2. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    We just made the last ranked defense in the league by a wide margin look really good...

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  3. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    He was shooting .421 from 3 pt land prior to tonight's game. I know he only shoots when he's wide the hell open, but teams are leaving him wide the hell open and he's still not shooting it. It just clogs up the paint for Baldwin, who's really our only consistent source of offense.
     
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  4. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    Really? You didn't think the substituting was all over the place? You liked the fact that we didn't adjust at all on defense? You thought it was good to keep bringing the second defender to KB to trap him? Not attacking you straight Jared just kinda trying to see what you see. Ball movement has definitely been better than the beginning of the year but aside from that can't really say a lot of positive from the coaching side. Yes I know LJ can't put the ball in the basketball but good lord how many whacked out shots does PJ and Jordan have to take before I see since fire from the coach into those kids to use your brain. It's just a head scratcher at the substitution patterns... I really can't even say anything else on it, it's just plain mind boggling. Why do you think we are so bad at defense if not starting from the top with the coaching staff?

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  5. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    I don’t really think the defense was bad today, especially considering Nate’s minutes were limited and he is by far the better defender. so I’m not sure I see any issues there to adjust to. I’ve talked about how I don’t like the minutes distribution, so I agree with you there, but then that’s not a problem that has an easy solution (remember that when Jordan wasn’t playing 10 guys that many were complaining about David not getting his chance).

    I know everyone is going to disagree with me, but this is actually what I want out of Jorgensen. I’ve beaten it to death, but I’ve talked about how I don’t like the role Jorgensen has fallen into since Tucker arrived. PJ is a rhythm player that needs volume shots to be effective. If we are going to use him, I want him shooting. Remember that Jorgensen scored 15 or more points in 7 of the 9 games before Tucker got here. His shots didn’t fall today. But I don’t care if he takes 12 more shots against Marquette. When Tucker, McDermott, and Jorgensen are all not hitting shots Butler isn’t winning games. This team’s strength is perimeter shooting, and I think Butler needs to embrace it, and just accept that some nights the shots won’t fall, and live with it.


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  6. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    I do think the high ball screens with our center needs to stop. It just adds an extra defender to the ball, and neither Brunk/Fowler are that great at shooting or rolling to the rim.

    In fact, they're quite slow out there and don't have to be guarded, which exasperates the issue, when no one is already guarding Aaron Thompson on the perimeter.
     
  7. chas1116

    chas1116 Active Member

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    Yep- probably the best chance for a quality win before the BET and we all know how well Butler always plays in the BET- LOL. There is a chance as the other 4 home games are imminently winnable but even if you swept the last 5- you still have to beat GT or Providence on the road- not going to be easy. Anything short of 9-9 in the BE and it's time for "Turn Out The Lights, The Party's Over". I truly believed Butler would go 2-0 this week and head into the Marquette game with some steam but they are officially on the ropes at this point- one more solid punch to the head and the ref stops the fight
     
  8. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

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    Just finished watching the game on DVR. Sort of sad I stayed up this late for that. This just isn't the Butler basketball I fell in love with.

    I too was befuddled why we were content to always switch our bigs onto guards all night, but also agree the offense was the bigger issue. Can't score that few points against such a bad defense. Thought we could have gotten inside more either for kickouts or to take it all the way.

    Also, equally as terrible as the refs tonight was the broadcast crew. I lost count of how many mistakes they made (Welch getting names/calls wrong all damn night, including one particularly uncomfortable slipup when he referred to JT as Chad Tucker. Turner calling Tucker a Junior and Thompson a freshman, etc.) It was nice seeing Welch get drilled in the face, though.
     
  9. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that someone out of Tucker, Jorgensen, or McDermott has to have a big night for us along with Baldwin to win games.

    I also don't care if Jorgensen takes volume shots, but they have to be better shots. Pulling up for 3, three yards behind the 3 point line during a fast break or going one on three in the lane--only to get swatted, are crappy shots and often put our defense in horrible position on the other end.
     
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  10. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I think that at this point we probably have to concede that Paul doesn’t know what a bad shot is. It’s going to drive us crazy, but it’s what drives him too.

    I get frustrated every time he pulls up at the elbow, but if he can turn in moderately efficient performances overall, we add another weapon and are a different team.

    I just don’t think we have the right players to be able to play 40 strong offensive minutes without getting something from him, so him being bad has a relatively capped downside impact.

    Tonight certainly wasn’t it, but Lavall showed confidence in a guy who I think needed it, and I appreciate that in a coach.


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  11. LA-OC-IE

    LA-OC-IE Active Member

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    Just curious...which Butler team tugged at the heartstrings? 1961? 1962? 1997? 2003? 2007? 2010? 2011?

    This team has 3) 6’7” snipers...2 sophs and a junior...driving to the rack is not an option. One tries but shouldn’t.

    AT (soph) can drive and kick but others must play off him and work to get open in unison.

    Big man (soph) loads of potential single season most improved Dawg in a generation...hope he continues to work on his craft and get better.

    Another big... freshman, highly rated and turned down Cuse to be a Dawg ...getting a cup of coffee.
    I think the future looks bright.
    A proven rebounder, albeit HL, with size waiting his opportunity after a year in the program.

    Another 6’’7” athletic frosh most know nothing about outside of 30 seconds HS you tube video.

    A top 150 6’4 SG and top 150 6’9 screener and defensive stud?

    I too enjoyed watching that ball smack him right on the beak!
     
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  12. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

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    Experience-wise Tucker's a freshman. Too often he is over-confident with his dribbling ability but he's an inexperienced college player who has shown some skill at dribble penetration.

    Y'all sure do change your minds quickly when it comes to players' raw ability. Tucker is about as much of a stud as we will ever see, even when he has a s***ty game. Who doesn't have a s***ty game once in a while?
     
  13. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

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    His skillset is that when he is playing PG the offense has maximum fluidity. He has shown he can hit shots but he is still timid, maybe because he's not a natural shooter and knows it.

    His drive and pass can be outstanding. It's a sorely needed aspect of an offense that too often has little to no movement. I've said it before and I still believe it: AT is the key to this team. No, that doesn't mean he is the best individual player, just that his presence on the floor is critical to this team playing an offense that can win games.

    Oh... his defense is really good, too. He needs to dial back the silly touch fouls, though.

    He is the team MVP in that he is the player the team most would miss most if he were out with an injury or for any other reason.


    ETA: He is the player the team should miss the most. IMO. I don't know that they know that, though. What about Kamar? Yep. Playing without him would suck. But the team could make up much of his scoring through better on and off the ball movement (that would ensue without Baldwin) leading to open shooters. And KB's defense this year hasn't been as effective as it could be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  14. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    [Bolding mine]

    I'm not sure that's the solution but... who knows? ;) I'm for anything that works at this point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  15. BoyGeoff

    BoyGeoff Active Member VIP Member

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    We do switch our bigs too readily. When there is space stay with it. Several occasions we put ourselves into a mismatch unnecessarily.
    The other side of this is to make hard contact and make them pay for the high pick. You have to create some reluctance for the contact. Yes it could result in a foul, but they have to pay to make that choice. I'd rather have a contact foul than the pattycake fouls we get called on.
    We were outrebounded by 10. Creighton was +9 defensive boards.
    We seem to replay the same game over and over. Miss shots, get a little softer, dig a hole and not have the firepower to get out. We have turned into Marquette. We have to outshoot to win. That is why we can't win on the road.
    Yes, shooting poorly was the main culprit. I just don't see the mindset to get stops that I have seen in seasons' past. Period.
    Win against Marquette and we have a great shot to get even again. Sure glad we have two home games.
     
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  16. MSUDawg

    MSUDawg Well-Known Member

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    This roster just has no road cojones. None.
     
  17. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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    FWIW - Creighton allowed less points per possession defensively 3 times this season. UMKC, Green Bay and Non-D1 Coe. Butler scored 0.84 PPP against a Creighton team that even with last night's result has been allowing 1.15 ish PPP in conference play. Someone else other than Baldwin needed to step up and hit shots last night and no one did.

    We can rail against the rotations, but when the offensive ratings of your starters is as follows, I think you have to keep trying things to see if something, anything, clicks.

    O Rtgs
    Baldwin - 112
    McDermott - 49
    Tucker - 66
    Thompson - 32
    Brunk - 85

    I'll be interested to see how they perform from the Seton Hall game on, as they'll get a couple weeks off in February to actually work on themselves rather than being constantly preparing for or analyzing games in practice.
     
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  18. Woof

    Woof Well-Known Member

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    Perimeter shooting is a strength when the shooters are setup for success. Right now, we essentially have at least four players standing around on the perimeter with our center attempting to post up or setting a ball screen. If that doesn’t work, it’s Wild West, desperation mode. No cutters and very few off-ball screens. We just expect the shooters to get open by themselves or off a weave action. Too easy to guard right now.

    PJ and Tucker are volume shooters, but bad shots are still bad shots. Tucker was 2-10, 1-8 from three. I’d say about 7 of shots were forced, contested, or off-balance. Most of PJs shots are the same. When both of them are open and settle their feet before shooting, good things happen. McDermott rarely takes a bad shot and usually has his feet planted, which is why he’s had the most success from deep. Footwork is on them, but our offense has to get them open.

    We also have to prove that someone outside of Baldwin can get to the rim. PJ can slash, but takes the most maddening, soft layups I’ve ever seen. He fades away from contact and/or spins up a finger-roll from his hip. Dude should be able to get to the foul line at a decent clip, but can’t go up strong. I’m not sure if Tucker has practiced a layup in his life. He’s an athletic, strong, rangy wing. He needs to go up strong like one. I think McDermott has the ability to get to the rim as well, but rarely tries. If they can do anything off the dribble, it’ll open up the offense so much more and give them more open looks. Again, part of it’s on them, but coach has to draw up the looks.

    Broken record, but my biggest frustration is that we have talented players, arguably one of the most talented teams, top to bottom, that we’ve ever had. Time and time again, though, they’re not being put in the best position to win the game. I’m still giving Jordan the benefit of the doubt because he’s still relatively green, and we’ve seen him have success in certain games. The glaring issue for me is it seems like if plan A doesn’t work, there’s no plan B. He just throws different subs into the game hoping plan A works with different players. Stop trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. We have to be able to make some game plan adjustments if needed in order to win games in this conference.
     
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  19. BoyGeoff

    BoyGeoff Active Member VIP Member

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    I agree with this in that LJ had no choice last night but to keep searching for a line-up that could score. He never found one.





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  20. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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    While this team isn't devoid of talent, I think this isn't one of the most talented teams that Butler's ever had because outside of Baldwin, the offensive versatility just isn't there.

    Butler had 2 NBA players on the 08-09 and 09-10 teams and one of the best 4 year players to ever wear a Butler uniform on the 07-11 years. Mike Green is essentially what I dream that Baldwin could become (in terms of drawing fouls and court vision), and the 06-08 teams were actually built very similar to this one (other than Drew Streicher anchoring the defense). The offensive version of Tyler Lewis is what I think Thompson can strive for. Matt Howard, Andrew Smith and Andrew Chrabascz were both much better offensively or defensively than Brunk or Fowler.

    I think athletically this team is as good as any that Butler's had outside of maybe the Hayward/Mack/Howard years. But in terms of offensive skillsets, this team falls short, and defensively, they fall way short. You are free to feel that it's on the coaching staff, and maybe it is, but some of it lies with the players too because there are times when the offense is really clicking, the ball is moving and the team is getting and knocking down open looks, but it doesn't happen consistently.

    The biggest issue on this team is still at the defensive end of the floor as well, and I think a reason is that Butler seems to be constantly in mismatches. This didn't occur as much last season with Wideman anchoring the defense, and again, Butler's defensive strategy doesn't change much year over year, so I'm inclined to believe they don't have the right pieces in place at the back end of the defense (Stevens always said the Center position for Butler was the anchor of the defense).

    FWIW, the 2014-15 team had the 8th best rated defense in the country. 2015-16 they lost Barlow and Woods and they fell all the way to 97th. Same coaching strategy, slightly different combination of players, very different results.
     

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