Butler Bulldogs (12-8) vs Creighton Bluejays (11-8) - 1/25

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by Lukas Harkins, Jan 24, 2019.

  1. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,380
    Agree with everything you say, up until giving Jordan "the benefit of the doubt because he is relatively green." There are a whole lot of talented players on this team. Maybe not a single standout game change player like a Howard or a Mack or a Hayward, but pretty solid talent from top to bottom. Certainly enough talent to be in the top half of the Big East and a definitely a Tournament team, especially this year with no dominant teams.

    I was excited when Jordan was hired. Liked him as a player. Has done a lot of good things in his 20+ year career in basketball. Still like him as a Butler guy. But it is becoming more and more apparent he is in way over his head. I have been concerned for a long time with his competence, starting last season. He had a damn good roster last year and still grossly underachieved, struggled to a 21 - 14 record (14 LOSSES!), and was probably one loss away (luckily we beat Seton Hall in the BE tournament) from missing the show. Last year, easily a 25-win team with what he had to work with. (Think back, he made several glaring bad coaching decisions that actually cost us 2 or 3 losses. St. John's still hurts.)

    His poor head coaching skills have just been more amplified this year. Basketball is still a pretty simple game, even with the infusion of better athletes and the metrics and the wall-to-wall media attention. Wins and losses are still determined between the lines. Lot's of experience sitting on bench, too. Are the assistant coaches getting the opportunity to have any input on the product? It sure doesn't look like it. Butler 2018-2019 = Bad basketball. Appears to be Jordan's team. Period. When it fails, the losses....he blames on the players. No Toughness. No Leadership. Fatigue. Never an admission of poor strategy or preparation. Appears to be a little touch of arrogance with our coach. Not a bad thing at all and don't have a problem with it, if justified.

    Your statement of Jordan being "green" IMO is just another excuse for what appears to be his basic incompetence for a head coaching position at this level. How much time do you need to "absorb" the basic concepts of a pretty simple game and transfer them to a talented roster of players? What is obvious, the team(s) he is responsible for play bad basketball, make a ton of mental mistakes and grossly underachieve. We see no season-to-season, game-to-game or in-game progress or adjustments to correct the problems, to date. Looks like it is getting worse. Just how long does it take "green" to wear off, if ever?
     
  2. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $11,020
    Couple of thoughts-

    We started effectively one freshman ( Tucker) , two sophomores and two juniors one of which is really a sophomore in experience( McD).

    We go 10 deep with substitutes only two that have a lot of experience.

    Yes we have depth for the first time in my memory but it may be hindering us in the short term.
     
  3. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
    $360
    I agree that the offensive system is essentially 3 guys (shooters) standing around, Baldwin with the ball, and either our big man posting up or trying to set a high ball screen.

    There's just isn't any off-the-ball movement, screens, or cutting to the rim.

    I just don't think our offense really works. Teams are simply not defending our center when setting a screen and instead selling out to double Baldwin (sometimes Thompson).

    Why wouldn't they? It's not like either Brunk or Fowler is a dead eye three point shooter on the roll. I'd take my chances with either shooting 3's all day.

    With teams sagging off Thompson as one of the shooters, it also just clogs the paint further for Baldwin.
     
  4. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,798
    Can't really choose just one team. I grew up in Meridian-Kessler and going to games starting in the late '90s, have been a fan for as long as I can remember. My dad and I drove to Cleveland to see the Dawgs lose to UWGB in the HL Tournament in 2002. We were in Hinkle when Avery Sheets hit the shot against UWM to win the HL regular-season championship. I had a summer babysitter who played volleyball at BU, and she introduced me to a lot of the players from the first Sweet Sixteen team. It was like meeting celebrities for me. I remember in particular Joel (RIP), Archey and Nick Gardner were really good guys. That stuck with me, even as young as I was. I went to Butler basketball camp every summer.

    I've been lucky enough to have attended almost all of the classics over the last 20+ years, save Gonzaga. OSU the first time when we stormed back from a double-digit halftime deficit. OSU without Evan Turner. The Xavier clock malfunction. Both Final Fours. 2012 Crossroads Classic. Beating Nova with Holtmann. I'm not trying to brag, just trying to explain where my passion comes from. Sometimes I feel like I don't have as much reason to complain or give my opinion on certain things because I'm not an alum.

    Maybe I'm being too nostalgic or oversimplifying things when I yearn for them to play like past teams. I know every team is different. I just still think our overall talent isn't enough to win without playing harder and smarter than our opponent every single night. I wanted to pull my hair out every time Krampelj had the pleasure of posting up against one of our guards or got a free roll to the rim.

    To your point about the future, I agree it can still be bright. The talent is getting better. Just don't want the program to lose the identity it became so well-known for.

    Sorry for the long post and possible oversharing. Felt good to get that off my chest, though :)
     
  5. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $5,120
    I would probably disagree here. I don't blame it on inexperience as much as the disappearance of our seniors. Both Fowler & Jorgensen have played like mid-major athletes when we needed them the most. Think about the difference Martin & Wideman made last year. We've had nothing like that this year.
     
  6. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $5,120
    I'm thinking the opposite. Battle should be getting his body ready to play in the BE right away.
     
    RegionTownDawg likes this.
  7. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

    Money:
    $1,783
    My comment was rash and unwarranted. I can admit when I’m at fault.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
    estar20dawg likes this.
  8. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $660
    Butler has always had senior leadership, they don't this year. No leadership, no toughness, and no grit. It is a little late this year, perhaps next year.
     
    bumba likes this.
  9. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
    $360
    If the Seniors aren't very talented or assertive, then it's time for guys like Baldwin, Thompson, and McDermott to step up and fill the void.

    Baldwin and McDermott have played in enough big games and been in the program long enough where their voices should carry.
     
    Hanover dawg likes this.
  10. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $11,020
    I’m not going to pick on PJ or Fowler. They are what they are. To expect them to be something they are incapable of isn’t fair.

    I still believe we are lacking experience and talent to compete at a consistently high level. Experience and talent are why Marquette is where they are versus where we are. Everyone picked on Wojo until this year. Now few are criticizing him. Heck Jay Wright was 52-46 in his first three years at Nova and 13-19 in the year we went to the Final Four. So even great coaches need talent and experience.
     
    ButlerProf, bwesson15 and Irishdawg like this.
  11. cornette33

    cornette33 Active Member

    Money:
    $520
    Think we have way too many wings and no one who can play the 4. That problem will be the same next yr. Hopefully Nze and Hastings can be difference makers. Do u think that would force us to change how the offense runs?
     
  12. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

    Money:
    $602
    I'm more hoping they and the other returnees change how the defense runs, considering that's the team's weak point this year and it's at least supposed to be one of Hastings' strengths.
     
  13. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,093
    And Nze strength is rebounding and physicalness

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  14. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $5,120
    We all have done the same. You're not the first, certainly won't be the last & I like your posts. I do think Battle will be able to make a positive contribution next year & hope he competes for Baddley's minutes. Nothing against Henry but we simply need more shooters on the floor.
     
  15. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
    $360
    In addition, to another player who can consistently score off the dribble besides Baldwin.

    -Bigger wings
    -More athletic frontcourt

    Should be points of emphasis in recruiting.

    Tucker looks like he'll be a really good bigger wing for us in time, but could use more of these prototypes going forward.

    I think having to have McDermott as our 4 and paired with Fowler/Brunk makes our frontcourt pretty unathletic and not physical.

    Also what will it take for Butler to ever recruit a shotblocker? Feel like having one of those shores up a lot of defensive deficiencies.
     
  16. kmacker69

    kmacker69 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $3,181
    I think a few of us got a little hot under the collar last night. No worries!
     
  17. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,444
    A more athletic front court is key. Right now it's stiffs that can't jump over a small puddle. Then they hedge and are so slow someone ends up wide open for a 3 or a layup. Our frontcourt is hot garbage.

    And to the few hard core believers still left...how much is enough? What in the holy Hell has this team and staff shown you that keeps you desperately hanging on? The team is getting worse, not better. Decent to good teams grow and develop over a season. This one is in the sewer. And not even the parts with rats.
     
  18. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $660
    Next year will be critical for the program, one sub par year is not a killer, but two will be and means some serious decisions by the athletic department, boosters, and fans.
     
    OldSchoolDawg1983 and dippper61 like this.
  19. jeff

    jeff Active Member

    Money:
    $241
    Not desperately hanging on just hoping for a turn around which has happened numerous times over the years as anyone who follows the team knows. Quite frankly Willis you have been predicting doom for as long as this board has been around. Butler went from being a team that never had any post season possibilities to one that has made the NCAA Tournament 10 out of the last 12 years. In 2016 we were 2-5 in conference play and ended up 10-8. As a matter of fact the optimistic fans have been correct far more often than the ones who trash the team. Don't get me wrong I get frustrated with how this team plays at times , but I still root for them to do well. I find that over the years the team has given me far more joy than disappointment and they have proven the naysayers wrong far more often than the other way around.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  20. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $11,020
    We need a point guard that can shoot, create and pass. AT has the potential but right now opponents don't respect his ability to shoot or create. Tom Izzo said the other day you can't win consistently without a top point guard.
     
    ButlerProf, dippper61 and IndyDawgs like this.

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