Butler Bulldogs (2-3, 1-1) at Providence Friars (6-3, 2-1), Wednesday, 12/30, 5:00 PM EST (FS1)

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ButlerNut, Dec 27, 2020.

  1. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,689
    Couple things-With JMM you could make the argument that he is affecting outcomes of games because you simply can't play him. And with a team that seems snake bitten between injuries/illness/grades...having two bodies you simply cannot play hurts us every game. We cannot play 7 deep, when 4 of those are inexperienced freshmen, in the big east and think we'll be anything more than bottom feeders. Even if he could give 6-8 minutes to spell the front line that would be a tremendous help. But you just can't play him if you're trying to win.

    Also with him being oh so bad can we point to that for some of the monster mental and physical mistakes we're seeing from upperclassmen bigs? Are they feeling too much pressure because they know they are going to be called upon to do more than they can? Knowing there is one still on the fly of learning guy on that bench that can spell them here and there? And add anything of positive significance to the game? The way Nze is playing it seems he's trying to do way too much which is leading straight bone headed play. He's also worse at the FT line...which is half mental because his stroke isn't that bad. Golden seems to be pressing a ton too. Just a thought.
     
    jkcdawgs likes this.
  2. Army Dawg!!!

    Army Dawg!!! Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $647
    First off this isn’t a “bad” team. This is an inexperienced team missing their best player and leader.
    Second, I agree we should be watching the development of the young players but to say this is a bad team is just kind of lazy. This team has talent so they aren’t bad.
     
    bwesson15, Shimmy, 2xDawg and 4 others like this.
  3. iluvsnow

    iluvsnow Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $617
    I had to giggle last night. Right after Butler's humiliating loss....I channel surfed and came upon a post game interview with Bryce Golden's brother Grant. The elder Grant...as most know plays for Richmond and is an all league player in the A-10. Apparently Richmond won the game and Grant must have been the player of the game The announcer asked Grant who his role model was....who inspires him. Grant's reply was his brother Bryce. He said he is a "stud" for Butler. :p:p:p:p:p
     
    DawgPoundMac likes this.
  4. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,657
    Saying they’re inexperienced is just giving an explanation for why it’s a bad team. And I think it’s mostly the right explanation. But it doesn’t change that it’s a bad team.
     
    jkcdawgs likes this.
  5. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User

    Money:
    $769
    Yeah I'm not sure what's going on with the Bryces, but simply moving them to the top of the scouting report can't explain how much worse they are than last season efficiency-wise, and Nze is worse than he's ever been in his college career this year.

    As for JMM, if he could help the team win games, they would play him. I have been somewhat surprised that Hastings doesn't get more time because it doesn't seem like he's doing anything obviously wrong and he can at least give minutes at the 4, but I also trust the coaches are much better at identifying the issues than I am.

    I'm in agreement that this is a bad team right now. The lack of experience and practice time are factors in that, and it doesn't mean they won't get better as the season goes on. But right now they aren't good at most things, and don't seem to have a functioning offensive or defensive plan, or at least they don't seem capable of executing one. Again, I do expect some improvement and maybe down the road this year they'll surprise, but the issues the team has don't seem fixable simply by adding Thompson to the mix, though it certainly won't hurt.
     
    estar20dawg likes this.
  6. SnoopDawg

    SnoopDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,518
    We need Thompson, period.
     
    Tentozen likes this.
  7. iluvsnow

    iluvsnow Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $617
    I think about all teams but the very elite are having and will have wild swings this season. How else to explain the horrid performance of Michigan State of late? How about X last night? They start 8 and oh and look like world beaters and then last night they were down almost 30 at home to Seton Hall.
     
    Tentozen and willisbrown like this.
  8. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,689
    I think if you add Thompson the key is it makes the team deeper which is welcomed. And although I'm not the biggest David fan...he adds depth too. Then you have an experienced duo to help with all the inexperience. Thompson I believe makes this a 4-5 big east win team...maybe 6. So nothing mind blowing but better than last place probably. Right now it's a last place team.

    Also, I've sprained ligaments in both knees but have avoided a major tear...what is normal for returning from an acl at this level? It's been about a year since David went down and it seems from murmurs that he's not close to returning. Shouldn't a year be about the time frame? I know, all injuries are not made equal and he already has one busted wheel.
     
  9. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,734
    This is a young, inexperienced team with some pretty decent potential that more than likely will never be developed to its potential because of BAD coaching. (Like, how come Golden hasn't picked up more than the two post moves he had 2 years ago? Development?)

    Because they are young and inexperienced, you would think BU would be running predominantly north/south offensive sets to get these guys shots closer to the bucket. They don't run sets. The have no offensive philosophy or goals. What they do is high picks and a few screens to get someone in a one-on-one position. There is no, zero, none offensive plan. Oh, and these guys really aren't deadeye 3 point shooters either. Maybe getting them closer to the bucket or some layups would help? Duh. And maybe a little structure would minimize some of the bad decisions and mental mistakes. You think? Same as it has been under four years of Jordan. Dribble drive, break your man down, launch at will...just because you're open. Not every open shot is a good shot, yet everyone has a green light from anywhere. And not everyone should have a green light from anywhere either. ALL possessions should be valued.

    TV analyst's comment at 13:00 in the second half: "Butler has done a lot of dibbling tonight."
    TV analyst's comment at 6:00 in the second half: "It's hard to go one on one against a good Big East defense."

    Well don't tell that to our coach!!!! He still hasn't figured it out. I've said during Jordan's entire tenure what the hell does he think when he watches tape? Or does he even watch tape? How the hell can a major D-1 head coach think his crap approach on offense is effective and the best we can do? It is so painful to watch a game anymore. Even the "Baldwin only" approach didn't maximize the offense and it cost victories, but that's another discussion. Where are all those posters who, during Jordan's first two years, said that he was just inexperienced and needed time to gain experience as a head coach. This after nearly 20 years as a major college assistant. Or those who said he just needed the right players to fit his system. Uh, I think these are his players. The are a hell of a lot of "systems" out there. How about installing a system to match the players you do have?

    Can't limit the criticism to the offense either, with the total abandoning of defensive fundamentals, like double teaming the post, pressure on the ball, protecting the baseline, weak side help, overplaying the passing lanes and on and on and on and on.

    It's not just about missing a player (Thompson). This is just IT. Apparently this is what you're going to get with Jordan. Into his 4th year, this is as good as it will get. So, brace yourself for a whole lot more embarrassing losses. In recent years Butler teams were always competitive, played smartly, and rarely embarrassed themselves. Got a feeling we're in for a change.

    Still not calling for Jordan's head. Yet. He does have some talents. Looks like he can recruit talent. Will it take a Collier intervention? He's Jordan's boss. But clearly this isn't working. Hire someone on the staff to game plan and strategize. Let Jordan run practices, recruit, be the face of the team. There is a little arrogance and stubbornness with Jordan. Starting to believe he believes his way is the only way and he won't change.

    Bottom line, problems are a whole lot deeper than Thompson's injury. Or the fact that these guys are young and inexperienced. Or Covid. Think about it. The "creative" excuses have been around during Jordan's entire tenure as head coach. Double digit losses in all of his seasons (only saved by Covid last year with only 9, but certainly would have had 11), and rapidly heading toward the first losing season in years. As a long time Butler fan, to me, this is just unacceptable. It doesn't have to be this bad. I want and expect much better. So should you. At this point in the program, are you satisfied with losing and double digit loss seasons?
     
    2xDawg, willisbrown and Bernie44 like this.
  10. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,689
    We were God awful and had a losing season in 18-19. And in many occasions embarrassed ourselves. In 17-18 and in 19-20 LaVall had Kelon and Kamar, two of the most gifted one on one players we've seen at Butler, to bail his putrid offensive game plan out. He doesn't have that and AT isn't that either. But at least AT can bring some focus and stability to what otherwise is awful execution for the most part. There were some pretty good three looks last night generated but they weren't falling and the team panicked.

    I like the recruiting going on but I agree with many others, he needs to hire someone who will stand up and develop an offensive game plan and he needs to fire a defensive coach too.
     
  11. SnoopDawg

    SnoopDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,518
    Everyone that is hating on the Bryces, I know it can seem justifiable, but a big man is only as good as those around him. They are missing their floor general point guard, Kamar Baldwin, and 2 great snipers from last year (JT and Sean). I think when you combine that with a lack of conditioning/recovering from a virus it's pretty obvious what is causing the fallout.
     
    Tentozen likes this.
  12. TexanDawg

    TexanDawg New Member

    Money:
    $34

    No, I'm not satisfied with losing and double digit loss seasons; yes, the team is playing some ugly, frustrating basketball right now that is very difficult to watch. But let's take a step back and look at the big picture of where things stand "at this point in the program." We are in year 4 of the LVJ Era, and I think it's fair to say it oftentimes takes new head coaches a few seasons to build the roster in their image and to fully instill their offensive and defensive philosophies on the program. We can look at Kevin Willard as an example. In his first five years at Seton Hall, his teams finished 13-17, 21-13, 15-18, 17-17, and 16-15...never had more than 8 BE wins...and never placed higher than 7th. In year 6 (2015-16), the Pirates began a run of five straight 20-win seasons and top-3 BE finishes. We all know that LVJ's first three years have featured two 20-win seasons, including 9-9 and 10-8 BE marks. And what has he had to work with? Not much, really. Some nice holdovers plus AT in Year 1, followed by two weak recruiting classes (with Golden being the only consistent contributor). Combine the recruiting swing-and-misses (Hastings, JMM, Battle) with the losses of Young and Brunk and you have the recipe that results in ugly losses and disjointed play on both ends we're seeing so far this season. So here we stand in Year 4. We all feel good about the 2020 and 2021 recruiting classes, so maybe Jordan has figured out the recruiting component of the puzzle....although we won't see a true breakthrough into the upper echelon of the BE hierarchy until there's a consistent flow of 6'9"-6'10" guys coming in. I have confidence that LaVall will figure out the Xs and Os part, too. (PS - I wonder if losing Jeff Meyer was a bigger blow to this team than anyone could have realized.)
     
    Army Dawg!!! and BoyGeoff like this.
  13. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,681
    Look if you want to criticize the offensive system, I’m not going to argue with you but prior to this year, Jordan’s teams have ranked 22, 53, and 25 in offensive efficiency. If that’s not good enough for you, I’m not sure what it is you’re looking for.

    What I will argue with you on, though, is criticism of Lavall’s player development.

    Butler has had 4 guys go to the NBA on this side of the Korean War. 2 of them have come in Lavall’s 3 seasons, and none of those were named Kamar Baldwin, who probably had a better career numbers wise than any of our nba players.

    Moreover, neither of the NBA guys that Lavall produced were on anything close to an NBA tract before Lavall arrived.

    You can say the players’ successes was or was not because of Lavall. If you say it was not due to him, you can’t also blame Lavall for another player’s lack of development; Either the coach gets the credit and the blame or he doesn’t.





    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,681
    Great, great post.

    I don’t think the Bryce’s seem right, I’ll concede that, but they are getting the blame when it should be going to those around them.

    They are fine, they are adequate Big East post players; they are being asked to be not only that, but guys you run your offense through, shooters, end of shot clock play makers, and sometimes the point guard-all while getting the most attention from opponents game plans. They aren’t that, they never have been that, and that doesn’t devalue them.

    What surrounds them is a bunch of freshmen who have had some nice moments, but that are very much still trying to find their footing. The freshmen not being big East ready is okay. In fact, it’s incredible how close they are.

    We are incredibly young. We do have talent. We are also bad, perhaps very bad. These can all be true and not cause for degradation of a process that is probably going as well as could be expected given the hand they were dealt.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    SnoopDawg and Tentozen like this.
  15. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    No no. What you don't understand is that when players go pro, that's in spite of the coach. When they underperform, that's because of the coach. Similarly, last year when we got up to #5, that was in spite of LaVall. This year, when they are struggling, that is because of LaVall.

    Hope this helps!
     
  16. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $7,909
    It should be encouraging that 4 of the 5 freshmen have played inspired ball with great effort, even if they lack purpose at the moment. They have been thrust directly into the fire and this experience will be invaluable in the long term. BU is still lacking key personnel in the big guard or swing position presently due to injury or eligibility. That does not excuse the rest of the upperclassmen for a lack of focus. They have exhibited very little on court leadership which tends to be demoralizing in more ways than one. Hopefully AT returns to action soon or we can expect more disjointed play.
     
    Tentozen and Staxawax like this.
  17. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,681
    Yeah, Kamar was the best freshman by far in my time as a Butler fan. He played 26 minutes per game. The guards are getting 29 minutes, Wilmouth 19 and Coles 18. Not only is that crazy experience for them, but they it also should tell us as fans to like chill tf out. 47.5% of our minutes are coming from guys who has school busses 9 months ago.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    Tentozen likes this.
  18. Staxawax

    Staxawax Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $11,481
    You observe a game and it all depends on what you want to think about it. Some put the anchor on JMM and can’t wait to post the same thing every game. Some criticize coaching. But they are missing the joy of watching a recruiting class that is confident, inspiring and completely bought in to the team concept. Yes, playing time is forced on each of them, but there has been no “deer in headlights” moments from any of them. Just pretend you’re watching scrimmages, because without fans that’s what it basically is. I salivate thinking about 2021 when Hughes, Taylor and Hodges are in the fight for rotation minutes. You’re seeing the foundation being laid today for what will be final four contenders in ‘23 & ‘24.


    Sent from my iPad using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
    Tentozen likes this.
  19. iluvsnow

    iluvsnow Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $617
    Scooby can't fight for time?
     
  20. Staxawax

    Staxawax Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $11,481
    There you go. So much to look forward to I totally forgot about the franchise!


    Sent from my iPad using Butler Hoops mobile app
     

Share This Page