Butler Bulldogs (2-3, 1-1) at Providence Friars (6-3, 2-1), Wednesday, 12/30, 5:00 PM EST (FS1)

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ButlerNut, Dec 27, 2020.

  1. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,405
    JMM too, is under extra pressure because of a short bench and lack of quality in the bigs. You can see that he is also trying way too hard and it's hurting his game. The guy is playing likes he's afraid he'll never see the court again if he does one thing wrong and many here seem to like it that way and that's just sad.

    He is not playing well, it's clear. But this isn't a pro team in a pro league. They can't just fire him and bring someone else in. If he was a pro then fine. Put the guy down and jump on the staff for not firing him. But he's not a pro so there's nothing else to do but support the kid.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
    dawgs2014 likes this.
  2. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $4,870
    LaVall's first two recruiting classes were bad. His first class at least had Golden, who starts and contributes . His second class was a complete whiff. A university of Butler's stature (and ethic$$$) can't patch up two whole classes with transfer players and still have continued Tournament success... It is, what it is.

    [​IMG]
    MOM!!! WHERE'S THE FLEX SEAL?!?!
     
    willisbrown likes this.
  3. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,711
    You can't right now, but in a couple months he needs to be processed. End of story.
     
  4. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    Say what you want about him playing or not, and I don't think he should play, but I don't want Butler to be the kind of program that revokes scholarships from kids who don't do anything wrong. If a kid is a good teammate, keeps his grades up, and has no disciplinary issues then he's a Butler Bulldog.

    If you want to criticize the staff for offering a kid who was not talented enough for this level of competition, then go ahead. I'd agree with you by the way! But the punishment for the staff's mistake is not taking away an educational opportunity from a student-athlete.

    We've always said as a fanbase that our program was different from places like IU. Cutting kids is...not a good way to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
    ButlerNut, AZRPh, NCJon and 8 others like this.
  5. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,405
    How often does Butler do that? When was the last time? It doesn't seem like that'd be very classy.
     
    BoyGeoff likes this.
  6. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,711
    It's never an "intentional" act around here I don't think. But I believe it happens behind closed doors in talks. I do believe there are transfers who make their own decisions (like Battle for instance) but I also believe your JGBs, Nolan Berrys, Smeathers etc are "heavily" encouraged to move on. Unless it's discipline, we don't just revoke a schollie. But I can promise you many don't walk out the door without the door being opened for them.
     
  7. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    If the staff wants to say, "Listen, JMM, we value your contributions in practice and in the locker room. You're a great teammate. But we also want you to know that given your past performance, it is very unlikely you see any playing time barring drastic improvement. It's up to you to decide what to do with that information." then that's fine with me. And I agree that likely happens often. But the way you put it earlier -- that he needs to be "processed" -- sounds more like you're advocating that he be cut. But maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
     
    Tentozen likes this.
  8. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,711
    It's a word used in the sec a ton (both football and hoops) so I hear it a lot. I think it's meant as a general term and not a "take his scholarship away" term. Which is how I meant it.
     
  9. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    Ah, gotcha. And to be clear, if he transferred -- I'd be glad! I don't think he can play at this level. And we desperately need a big man who can. I just think wanting him to transfer and forcing him to transfer are two very different things. Which it sounds like we agree on, actually.
     
    ButlerNut and dawgs2014 like this.
  10. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $14,525
    As one who has seen all this first hand, you’re basically saying the same thing. Scholarships can be pulled and sometimes asshole coaches do that - they tell a player they will not have a scholarship next year, so the player transfers. That’s wrong and what you’re advocating against.

    Willis is advocating for the “serious/stern conversation”, which is where a coach sits a player down and is very honest about that player’s future. Lavall can sit JMM down and tell him “you’ll likely never see the floor here, and if you want to play college basketball, your best move is to go elsewhere”. The player takes the hint. If JMM says “nah, I’m good with that, I want the Butler degree”, then the scholarship should be honored.

    As you said, the mistake is on the coach, not the player, as long as the player has worked hard and may just not have it.
     
  11. shoeevv

    shoeevv Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $847
    I’ve said this before, every scholarship athlete knows that if they don’t contribute, they shouldn’t be on the team. You’re selfish, if you don’t get it. There’s only 3 reasons why someone’s not playing. One, you’re not good enough, two, you’re good enough, but the coach doesn’t believe you are, or three, you’re hurt. With the first two situations, why would you want to stay?
     
    willisbrown likes this.
  12. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $6,618
    Seems harsh. If you’re a benefit as a practice player, get good grades (JMM does very well—which we need to keep an eye on due to guys leaving and reported underperformance) and are a good teammate (he is) then seems like we can spare 1 one scholly. Now if there’s several that aren't contributing on the court that’s on the staff for recruiting or lack of development. I don’t think it’s selfish if he’s contributing in those ways. And as has been said: JMM’s play isn’t what is bringing the Dawgs down right now.
     
  13. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    Is it selfish to not expect or want to be cut from a team that offered you a scholarship when you were a minor, especially when you haven't broken any rules?

    If there is anything selfish here, it's certainly not on the kid's behalf. The fans suggesting he have his scholarship revoked on the other hand....
     
  14. firedupkaren

    firedupkaren Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,804
    I get what you’re saying here, but JMM’s GPA relative to the rest of the team isn’t a reason for sparing a scholarship. That’s a very slippery slope and probably not something that can be afforded to every kid not able to keep pace on the court.

    Not everyone plays. There are 13 scholarships for every team and most teams play 8-10 guys. JMM likely has two choices (which as others have stated will hopefully be his decision to make).

    1. Stay at Butler and likely not ever play meaningful minutes, graduate, and that’s that.

    2. Transfer to a school where his playing opportunity is different than at Butler. As Willis has stated, that will 100% be a conversation that LaVall and his staff have with JMM after the season. I’d actually be MORE critical of LaVall as a coach of young men if he wasn’t having these types of real world conversations with his players.
     
  15. shoeevv

    shoeevv Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $847
    IJR, I understand what you’re saying, it’s just that it’s not what I felt or what anyone that I know has felt who’s been in this situation.
     
  16. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    And I wouldn't know that experience, so I could be totally wrong. I said this earlier, but I think there is a huge difference, as a fan, between wanting and forcing a kid to leave. I am 100% behind the "stern conversation" approach folks are mentioning. And, I should probably be clear, I would be happy if JMM chose to transfer to IPFW or something on that level. It would be better for him and Butler. I just will not be in favor of revoking his scholarship without cause.

    And maybe we literally all agree.
     
    BUcheer and shoeevv like this.
  17. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,690
    100%. I also think that it should go precisely as you said, as in “you likely won’t ever play here.” Not, “you won’t play here, and even if I’m wrong I’m not going to play you to make point.”

    The coach *should* be honest, but as long as the kid is trying, they should be treated the same as everyone else.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  18. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,478
    Well, he didn't play tonight even with Coles out so that's gotta be a sign.
     
  19. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $14,525
    Yep. This.
     

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