Butler Bulldogs (22-10) vs Virginia Cavaliers (27-7) - 3/19

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by Jared Grubbs, Mar 17, 2016.

  1. Truestory

    Truestory New Member

    Money:
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    What I found interesting with this team is the lack of basketball knowlegde from the complete coaching staff, assistants should be able to see things maybe a head coach doesn't, Im floor by the lack of bench coaching whenever a player comes out of the game coaches DO NOT COMMUNICATE SITUATIONS that are taking place in the game. Substitutes are timed EVERY GAME and benching coaching never happens. This team had plenty of potential to become a sweet 16/Elite 8 team. I have respect for Holtman but the guy is no more than a average High School coach. I think KD is a beautiful kid but he lack heart to ever play any defense or rebound a basketball, it absolutley killed the team this year. AC never rebounds, Davis could have help this years team tremendously COACHES NEVER developed the guy and and refuse to play him in games, why recruit the kid if your not gonna play him. Rose Jones all heart but coaches never coached him they only managed the guy. Martin most complete player on the team had the fight to earn additional minutes, coaches struggle to coach good talent. Wideman gave 100% everygame. Fowler couldve help many games if coaches ever played the guy.
     
  2. I like turtles

    I like turtles Active Member

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    I am beginning to think people are just trolling now. Holtmann is an average high school coach? Kellen lacks heart and killed the team this year? Fowler was needed in the game?

    It's cool that everyone has opinions but when did have to start respecting such idiocy? I am baffled by the the absolute merit less statements that have been made here. Go elsewhere with such baffoonery
     
  3. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I suppose you could count me in the "Butler-goggles" group when it comes to Holtmann. I think he's done an above average job with this team, and I feel pretty good about where we are and where we are going as a program. Having said that, even I can admit that Holtmann is no Stevens when it comes to in-game coaching, but who is? I think we are in good hands going forward. But to say he's an "average high school coach" is laughable.
     
  4. bulldogs51

    bulldogs51 Active Member

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    I am going to try to work in the word baffoonery into my office day tomorrow and see if I can't make it stick around for a while.

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  5. ButlerAlumDad716

    ButlerAlumDad716 Active Member VIP Member

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    WOW! I also learned that there are budget restrictions mandated by the Board of Regents regarding the ratio of academic to athletic spending.
     
  6. ThaddeusB

    ThaddeusB Active Member

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    Without the roster maintenance, there is definitely no spot for at least one of Etherington or Lewis, probably both. The remaining spots most likely would have eaten into next year's recruiting class.
     
  7. ThaddeusB

    ThaddeusB Active Member

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    If Jones & Dunham weren't great players, then what player in Butler history was outside of Hayward and Mack?
     
  8. ThaddeusB

    ThaddeusB Active Member

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    From where I sit, people claiming a team "lacks fundamentals" is almost universally equivalent to saying "they aren't as good at winning as I want them to be." Perhaps you can clear this up. What fundamentals exactly was Butler missing? Butler was well above average in FT shooting, so scratch that one off the list. Butler was top 10 in the nation in protecting the ball. If they were truly poor at things like meeting the ball on passing, not dribbling into bad situations, etc., it would show up there. Defensive rebounding was just average, so maybe you can point to blocking out? (Although they were quite good in that category last year, so could be a function of the roster makeup this year, not lack of skill.) They don't set a lot of screens, but that is arguably a function of style more than skill.
     
  9. ThaddeusB

    ThaddeusB Active Member

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    This statement is laughable. Holtmann has been the coach for ONE off-season. In that off-season, Martin and Wideman, at minimum, improved dramatically. That may or may not be his doing, but to say no one has developed is ridiculous.
     
  10. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Good question...I can't say. Maybe Howard? I'd say Rotnei was great but he was only here one year so, not sure if one would count that or not.

    Here's the thing, were those two top 20ish players in the history of Butler? I guess so. But, I also think they were limited players and unfortunately Jones got in his own way a ton. The kid played his guts out but I think went into overdrive when it wasn't necessary at times and as much as he helped win some games, he cost quite a few as well. That happens when you're asked to play out of position. And with Dunham, I think his game improved every year. But it never got to the level which I thought it could. Maybe I overrated him or maybe it was just a flaw of his against certain competition. Again, they were fine players, but losing them and looking into the future, that kinda excites me. As I have said, we'll be much more balanced, much more athletic and much deeper. And maybe, just maybe, we finally got our big and a real PG. Hopefully so.
     
  11. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

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    Somehow the stimulus to your comment thinks Holtmann in 18 months developed fifth year senior Jones and fourth year senior KD but not Martin or Wideman. Apparently he did an incredible job developing Chrabs between the Texas Tech game and the Virginia game. Those who have had very little personal development and success in life don't understand that the individual is primarily responsible for their development- not the government, not the spouse, not the boss, not the coach. The Jazz didn't make Gordon Hayward a star- Gordon Hayward made Gordon Hayward a star.
     
  12. ButlerGoalie

    ButlerGoalie Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Holtmann has been with the program for three seasons now. Wideman and Martin's progression seems more to be out of necessity in playing but not sure.

    My biggest concerns is lack of building a bench and not seeing any real progress from Davis in two years and Fowler throughout this season.


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  13. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Didn't want to litter up the appreciation thread with negativity (not mine), but Bulldawg, how do you square comments like this with congratulating Rose and Kellen after the game last night as you stated in the appreciation thread? I'm guessing you left these observations out of your congrats speech? I'd need a shower after that. smh.
     
  14. Bulldawg

    Bulldawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Can I not feel good for these guys as awesome people and students yet feel differently about their careers? I stand by my comments. They have come a long way from where they started, but they weren't ideal players to build around in the first place. They are awesome guys who have helped us win a lot of games and I congratulated them on that. However, their careers were not perfect. Sorry for being honest with my opinions. I didn't want to say that because I knew I'd get flack for it, but it's the truth and I'm not the only one who believes that. Anyway, Kellen and Rose are terrific people and I am glad we got to know them over the past 4 and 5 years.

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  15. Choc

    Choc New Member

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    I'm legitimately trying to understand the logic here:
    So you're saying that Wideman and Martin's strong progress = personal effort and necessity
    But Davis and Fowler's slow progress = Holtmann and staff's fault

    You do realize you could apply that same selectively negative logic (or the inverse) to any coach in history, right?
    Stevens
    Hayward, Howard and Mack = great HS/home coaching and personal drive
    Aldridge, Stigall, and Hopkins = lay all that at the feet of Graves and Stevens

    Lickliter
    Crone, Green, and Graves = needed to step up to fill gaps after the 2004-2005 season
    Grunst and James = driven into the ground by Lickliter and LaVall

    Everyone has had hits and misses. People have deified Stevens after he left, but he made some questionable recruiting choices and wasn't exactly batting 1.000 on developing players. He made the 2 super-deep runs, but also lost an 8/9 game to LSU in 09 with a decent (though young) team and had a really disappointing loss to UT in the Second Round of the 08 tournament. There was that season BU lost in the CBI Semis. I'm as big a Stevens fan as any, but let's not act like we were transcendent college basketball royalty.

    So give Holtmann a break - he's 2 years into an objectively Top 3 league, with back-to-back NCAA appearances (2-2 overall), a strong recruiting class, a laudable effort against a really strong UVa team, all while inheriting the crappy Miller situation. This team really struggled early in the conference season and didn't quit on him - lesser coaches and programs wouldn't have had that experience.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
  16. FightintheDawg

    FightintheDawg New Member

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    Everyone on this board should realize and feel good about the direction of this program. We lose four players this year, two of whom I would consider star players. But we gain five player who will contribute next year. Many of them will likely be big time players for the next 4 years. Every coach will miss on a kid, and we may have done that with Tyler Lewis and Jackson Davis. Next season will tell you for sure. But, they both may have an awesome offseason and find a role, or they may transfer and open a spot for a transfer Either way, all of us should feel good about the direction of this program.

    If you want to criticize coaching, lets give it another year or two. Holt will improve ingame, as Brad Stevens did. Young coaches do get better, and typically do better with the players they recruit for their system. Have faith gentleman or move on!!
     
  17. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    So it went something like this then: "Despite the fact that you are one dimensional and have huge weaknesses, thanks for winning us alot of games. Really glad you're graduating so we can start a new chapter! Oh, and you have an awesome personality!!"

    Sorry, I just don't get slamming players anonymously and then a few hours later clapping them on the back. If they knew you had made those comments would you have approached them?
     
  18. Bulldawg

    Bulldawg Well-Known Member

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    Yes...they are big boys and they know their short comings. They don't care what fans say about them. They've worked their butts off and given us everything. Unfortunately they were never meant to be Big East stars

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  19. mizebl

    mizebl Active Member

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    How many "Big East Stars" are in the league?
     
  20. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

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    Neither were Big East Stars but made All Conference first or second team over the past two years.

    I'm so mad at myself now for getting back involved with dumb thoughts.
     

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