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Jared Grubbs

Butler Bulldogs (3-0) vs Dayton Flyers (3-0) - 11/21

Jared Grubbs, Nov 19, 2018

  1. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Annnnd the offseason is OFICIALLY over.

    I can’t put a lot of stock into this loss. We played badly, but there was nothing about how we played that suggested real cause for long term concern. If this becomes a trend sure, but it likely won’t.

    Couple takes:
    1) Paul scoring 18 on 17 shots is only bad if the shots he’s taking are at the expense of other people producing more efficient offense. They really haven’t been. Except Kamar no one else even shoots if they don’t have a good look, and if Kamar’s not hitting, there aren’t a lot of those to go around. So Paul criticism is unwarranted tonight imo. He’d be the first to tell you it wasn’t his best game, but it didn’t cost us the game.

    2. Today was the day where I learned to value Aaron Thompson. When he wasn’t in we couldn’t stop the ball or even get into our offense. For the first time ever, I agree with Insane Dawg; Kamar just isn’t a point guard, and if we keep trying to make him one, we’re not utilizing his strengths. The reason he’s not a point guard is because he just doesn’t have a good “feel” for what he’s seeing on the floor, or how to digest it. He’s a spectacular 2 guard.

    Get after it tomorrow, I think we’ll look much better.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  2. Woof

    Woof Well-Known Member

    I’m interested to see how Butler responds tomorrow. The season is young, and this is still a team navigating the post-Kelan world. This game can be a good learning experience for the players and coaches. I’d rather have this outcome in November than March.
    Trumpforpresident2020 likes this.
  3. fdr

    fdr Well-Known Member

    Gosh Mark, Paul really has you fired up. I'd like to remind you that Paul just plays basketball for Butler, he's not dating your daughter.
    Hinkle, Tentozen, I Am Butler and 2 others like this.
  4. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    Can't understand it. In looking at the roster before the season started I thought to myself now here is a group of guys who are really athletic and who can create their own shots, take defenders off the dribble at will, and deserve the latitude and the green light to jack it or take it to the hole at any time. (Not) Obviously, Jordan thought so. We just weren't hitting? Come on. You think those were the best shots we could have gotten? Completely undisciplined for the majority of the game and out of character for Butler teams. No reason for that display, even if the shots weren't dropping. You actually can win when the shots aren't going in as frequently, if you play smartly. Dayton was pressuring in the half court, especially in the first half, how many back doors did we get? Forget that, how many back doors did we even attempt? We don't run a offense. Weaving east and west on the perimeter is no offense. No offense. No athletes. This is why "pressure" used against us works so well. Those who have complained we don't handle pressure well are spot on. Hell, we had trouble with the Detroit pressure. Point is, this roster is not made up of athletic shot creators, yet Jordan seems determined to play that style. Ironically, that is the furthest type of offense of when Jordan played at Butler. Pulling your 6 - 10 and 6 - 11 centers out to pick for Baldwin 25 feet from the bucket (and out of rebounding position) when they should have been posting up low all night long (they were the biggest guys on the court) seemed a bit counter intuitive as well. Brunk shooting 90% from the field....yes, let's pull him away from the bucket. We couldn't have a play or two to post him up down on the block? Game plan Coach? Even in the 3 wins, you could see this coming. Butler doesn't have the Michigan/Beilein type athletes.....if that is where Jordan picked up this style. Time to coach to the talent on THIS roster, otherwise, will be a long year. Would love to see some of those simple but effective offenses like when Jordan played at Butler, and not so much the Michigan crap, if that is where this comes from. P.S. Maybe with some offensive sets would can have more spread of shot distribution.
  5. pjohnsto2003

    pjohnsto2003 Well-Known Member

    Or is he?!?!

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
    Tentozen likes this.
  6. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

    There's a pretty solid chance we are going to end up with 2 shots at Florida now.
  7. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

    Those possession stats don’t factor in assists, so while Baldwin being a better assist man the Jorgensen is relevant, it doesn’t actually impact possessions used. Only the person who gets the stat that ends the possession (turnover, made shot, or missed shot) gets credit for using the possession.

    And I completely agree with you on Baldwin. The offense revolves around him. He has to be better, and I’m not yet concerned about him. Part of being better is going to have to include understanding that he doesn’t need to do it all. He’s extremely impactful as a decoy to open others up. We need more plays like the one that got McDermott his final 3 of the night. We need more post touches, which can include Baldwin. We need more quick ball reversals out of the traps.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
  8. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

    Also, I really think LaVall needs to consider something outside of the pick and roll to help get dribble penetration for Baldwin. I wish I could see the numbers right now, but I think Baldwin does better getting into the paint on his own than with the help of a ball screen. Neither Brunk nor Fowler are excellent pick and roll big men. The screen is just bringing an additional defender to help guard Baldwin.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
  9. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

    Butler has to find a way to keep Thompson on the floor, Baldwin is not a point guard period. It will be interesting to see the rotation when Tucker is eligible and what happens with Golden, red shirt
    or play the Big East season?
  10. Mark Shelvin

    Mark Shelvin Well-Known Member

    He has much more of an impact on my life than Dan Dakich, to be sure.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
  11. Trumpforpresident2020

    Trumpforpresident2020 Active Member

    Flat out we were out coached in every way. What I took away from the game: 1) Lavall is a great guy but a horrible coach. Never made an attempt to change the tempo of the game until it was to late and the game was out of reach.

    2) Coaching will be a factor all season long. Dayton should not have been within 10 points had we made changes to our offense and defense schemes. We never utilized timeouts and Lavall just watched this game like he was the one watching it on tv. He did nothing to help these kids to win the game.

    3) Do we have Reggie Miller or Stephen Curry on the team? We shoot threes like we do. I hated watching Brunk work his tail off to get open or position down low and our guys rarely gave him the ball. At time they never looked to feed it down there. When Thompson and Brunk were in together it might as well have been thee on five. Fowler needs to come off the bench and we need to roll with Brunk. Our offense should run through Brunk and once he is hitting his shots from the low post, our deep ball will be open and more likely go in.

    4) As I mentioned before the tournament started, we should win no problem the only thing that will prohibit this from happening would be coaching. I want Lavall to be successful so bad because he is a nice guy and our program needs a coach who wants to stay like a Mark Few, but he is simply not the answer. Too many bone head mistakes and lack of experience is killing us. If it was not for our talent as a team Dayton would have blown us out. Simply put It would not bother me at all to see Lavall leave and start from scratch.
    dippper61 likes this.
  12. RPEye

    RPEye Member

    We were not prepared to play Dayton and that is on the coach. We faced a team that was very well prepared for us. We can only hope the coaching staff will use the game as a serious wake up call about preparation.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  13. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    We could leave the island 3-3.
  14. ButlerGoalie

    ButlerGoalie Well-Known Member

    I’ve seen MTSU play in person this season. If we lose tonight, it’s time to panic. Thankfully I’m not spending my Thanksgiving with my in-laws. All MTSU alums.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
  15. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

    Im afraid as fans we are going to have to get used to getting “outcoached” more than we have in the past. LaVall is still young, but I’ve never really viewed him as a great Xs and Os style coach the way Brad Stevens was (unfair comparison of course). I think LaVall is going to be an outstanding coach, just not that type. He seems to me like his strength is going to be recruiting, player development, and player relationships and then he’s mostly going to let guys play out there. He is going to earn more of his victories prior to tip-off and less from actual in game strategy. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that style. Butler fans just aren’t really used to getting “outcoached” so it feels frustrating. And I keep using the quotes because there is so much more to coaching than the strategy we see in game. LaVall is going to keep the Butler culture, but he’s going to really overhaul the Butler style.

    Hopefully that all makes sense and doesn’t come across as criticism of Coach because that’s not what it’s meant to be.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
  16. Trumpforpresident2020

    Trumpforpresident2020 Active Member

    I agree with you that Lavall recognizes talent when he sees it. I can't criticize him on that aspect. Recruiting and player relationships don't win games. I can't recall a good coach who was not an X's and O's guy. In my opinion you don't have to be a Red Auerbach to recognize when to call a TO or to change something up offensively and defensively if what you are trying is not working. I honestly believe that reading some of the comments made by some of us here in the forum, that we could out coach Lavall and his staff.

    THe evidence speaks for it's self. He is in way over his head. It makes me question if we did everything we could to retain Holtman. Why I bring this up is for the fact that Butler will always be a stepping stone type gig unless we keep the coach that is performing well. If this type of performance keeps happening I believe Lavall and company will be Butlers first head coach in quite sometime or ever to be fired.

    I'm wondering if collier is waiting for Stevens to come back.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
    shoeevv and dippper61 like this.
  17. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

    So just curious, of the current KenPom Top 10 teams, do you consider them all good Xs and Os guys? That's Duke, Kansas, UNC, Virginia, Nevada, Gonzaga, Michigan, Auburn, Florida State, and Tennessee. There are a lot of different coaching styles there.
    Trumpforpresident2020 likes this.
  18. wazthree

    wazthree Well-Known Member

    Chris Holtmann lost to Indiana State in his last year at Butler...Indiana State was KenPom #199. Was Butler out coached in that game?

    Chris Holtmann consistently lost to teams as 7+ favorites during his tenure at Butler. I guess it was the players fault, not his.

    The great Chris Holtmann lost to LaVall Jordan last year! Holtmann even had an NBA player on his team and our top recruit he took with him. So happy Holtmann outcoached Jordan as Butler overcame a 15 point deficit in the final 5 minutes...you have to be a great X and Os guy to let that happen to you team. Hard to defend a team that you recruited and know all their tendencies, Chris Holtmann is a genius I tell you.

    LaVall Jordan coached Bulldogs beat #1 And national champion, Villanova...as a first year Butler coach.

    Also, he took over at the end of the summer and led the team to the tourney and a win. Not bad for someone “way over his head.”

    Same haters will cry that he has no loyalty when other teams try to come poach him from us and with the disrespect you are showing a Butler alumnus, I wouldn’t blame him.

    Go Butler and Coach Jordan! Butler Way
  19. wazthree

    wazthree Well-Known Member

    UVA’s Tony Bennett must be the best at Xs and Os to be the first 1 seed ever to lose to a 16 seed UM-Baltimore County.

    Also, Louisville has to be insane to have hired Chris Mack as he failed to make it to the second weekend as a 2 seed twice!

    Villanova must start looking for a new coach with good Xs and Os, he has lost to LaVall Jordan and FURMAN just in the last year!
  20. kmacker69

    kmacker69 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    We played poorly and shot even worse. Unless you are playing a horrible team and do that you lose. (We lost by 5 points and missed 8 free throws at 52.9%!) These are 18-23 year old young men remember that when they have bad nights.

    TFP2020. Seriously: Just a sad response... Letting a team struggle and lose a game or two early in the season isn't always poor coaching, it can even be good coaching if used correctly. Even if the fans might go overboard in response.
    Tentozen likes this.

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