Butler Bulldogs (5-1) vs SLU (5-1) - 12/1/2018

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by butlerdawgs123, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Eric

    Eric Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $3,302
    He needs to play like he got a BS flagrant 1.

    Sent from my SM-G892U using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  2. Mark Shelvin

    Mark Shelvin Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,064
    We have no way of knowing because they largely control who shoots... primarily choosing themselves. Sometimes, that’s the best option. Frequently, it’s not.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
    pappyball likes this.
  3. Mark Shelvin

    Mark Shelvin Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,064
    He is playing like that, because he has an irrationally short leash.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
    pappyball, bumba and estar20dawg like this.
  4. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $3,981
    Yea I'm literally shocked at how he can even breathe at times. There is absolutely no way he can play free mind basketball, which makes him hesitant which makes him always going to be a step or two slower on decisions.
     
    pappyball likes this.
  5. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,589
    Lol people really want to blame a 12 point loss on a guy who missed 4 shots and a free throw.

    The story was that we missed shots. Nothing more, nothing less.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    bwesson15, pappyball and Hinkle like this.
  6. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,273
    sublime haiku and
    iambic pentameter
    are here together
     
    ButlerNut, pappyball and Dewars12 like this.
  7. Mark Shelvin

    Mark Shelvin Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,064
    Do you honestly think the result of any basketball game comes down to 1 factor? The story is a heck of a lot more. To chalk that up as the only relevant “story” is to give the players and coaches a hell of a lot more credit than they deserve in this instance. The easiest examples to prove you wrong are to look at our turnovers and assists. We had 14 turnovers and only 4 assists as a team. There are a lot of components that go into a loss... Nate Fowler was a key ingredient In Saturday’s.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  8. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $3,981
    You just got to put him on ignore like most of us do. I've never seen anyone talk as much as him and bring so little to a conversation.
     
    pappyball likes this.
  9. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,589
    Kamar and Paul shot 5-30. 5 for 30. If they shot 10 for 30 we win. If I told you that Kamar and Paul combined to shoot 33% from the field and we got a top 100 road win in a sold out arena, wouldn’t you be THRILLED? That’s what we needed to win and we didn’t get it.

    Obviously there are things you can point to that you wish we would have done better but in the big picture they are peripheral worries.

    In response to the assist to turnover situation, we would have had a lot more assists if we hit shots.

    Like people want to talk about scheme, personnel deficiency etc. Are they legit issues? Maybe. But we have a hell of a lot more info suggesting no then yes.

    First let’s look at adjustments. Our shots weren’t falling all game, so did we keep taking the same ones? No we started attacking the basket a lot more. In the second half we shot more two’s and less threes by a substantial amount despite trailing, and it resulted in 11 more free throws than the first half. That’s exactly what we should do. It just didn’t work. Our defense also was better in the second half.

    Was our offense bad? Yeah it was literally the worst it has been since 2014. Our offense ranked 20th in the country coming into the game. Even with our worst game since we were starting Kam Woods and Barlow we’re still 33. Last year we were 22. So if this becomes a trend, by all means freak out. But when every single data point we have suggests that our coach knows how to coach offense, and our players know how to play offense, why are we going to freak out about our offense? The results of this game are an enormous outlier and the most significant contributor that that outlying result was our outlying shooting.

    Everything until the shots went in the air was fine. It wasn’t great, we didn’t play well, but it wasn’t bad. The most uncontrollable aspect of basketball is whether the shot goes in and everything was TERRIBLE once the ball was in the air. We’re not upset that the players were shooting shots they can’t hit, it’s because they’re missing ones that they can.

    So I’m sorry I’m not freaking out like everyone else. I’m sorry that correctly pointing out criticism of Nate Fowler shouldn’t even be in the discussion of why we lost Saturday, and I’m sorry that I’m correctly trying to point out some different ways for people to watch the game that will help them view it from the perspective of a coaching staff, but sometimes you just miss shots, and the worst possible thing to do when that happens is to freak out about it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  10. Mark Shelvin

    Mark Shelvin Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,064
    Sorry bud. You hit my word limit. Not going to read your response. Try making your point—to the extent you have one—concisely. Best lesson I ever learned as an attorney. More is not always better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
    BHayden and estar20dawg like this.
  11. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,589
    Ok, then let me direct you to exactly that.

    Now if you need an explanation as to WHY this is the case, I recommend you read the post that is too many words for you.

    It’s quite amusing that your defense to your thoughts is that opposing opinions are both too short and too long.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    BHayden likes this.
  12. Danville Bulldog

    Danville Bulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $1,134
    Being an attorney is nothing to be proud of. They are generally parasites and scum.
     
    SRG likes this.
  13. TheDawgDub95

    TheDawgDub95 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,052
    I watched the game, again, yesterday. While SLU definitely made us uncomfortable with their bigger guards, which is probably why we shot so horribly, I didn't feel as awful as I thought I would about our offense.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  14. SpartanDawgs

    SpartanDawgs Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $515
    Dayton was a learning game. This one should just throw the tape away. Didn't shoot well. Should've won. Not totally sold on RS-ing both freshman either depending on their health.
     
    willisbrown and dawgs2014 like this.
  15. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $4,653
    BU could have won but saying that they should have won seems a little far-fetched. BU was outrebounded by 10. BU's lack of assists is best explained by poor shot selection as it is with simply missing shots. It's absurd for Fowler to shoulder the blame, but his performance certainly contributed to the loss. His overall play has been a disappointment up to this point in the season. I'm hesitant to think Hastings could have made difference in this particular contest. Golden's status remains an unknown other than he is obviously not ready to play physically. BU has usually found away to compensate for poor shooting but the lack of a true power forward appears to be the main area of concern for this team. BU currently has more question marks than answers especially in the area of toughness.
     
    Mark Shelvin, bumba and BoyGeoff like this.
  16. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $7,688
    Conciseness is important because you want other people (judges, colleagues, laymen, etc.) to read your work. It's a terrible excuse to use to not read other's work. Better attorney lesson: read and think.

    I'll try to be concise because I want you to read this. The following is true about Saturday's game:
    • Butler led St. Louis in defensive rebounding, offensive rebounding, and turnovers (each adjusted as a percentage of opportunities).
    • Butler missed 17 straight threes - a significant departure from the norm.
    • Butler missed 15 layups - a significant departure from the norm.
    • Butler lost.
    Draw whatever conclusion you like based on those facts. Mine is that it's absurd to think the game was mostly about something other than shooting, including "hustle" or "playing smart". Rebounding and turnovers are hustle/intelligence stats. If Butler wasn't playing hard and playing smart, they wouldn't have led those categories against a top 100 team on the road.
     
    shoeevv likes this.
  17. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,589
    Right. If we play the same offensive game on Saturday as we did against Dayton we score 65 points and win.

    In fact, we’ve only had a worse offensive game 4 times in the KenPom era, so this this game ranks 577/581 or a probability of 6/1,000 based on previous historical performances.

    It’s also the 4th lowest effective field goal % we’ve ever shot.

    Simply put, every single thing else that we did was good enough to win.




    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  18. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $7,642
    Agree, we're at a disadvantage playing small ball at the 4. It more than likely won't work in conference when toughness is imperative.

    LJ either needs to (1) make a change at the 5 so we can guard the lane, or (2) make a change at the 4 so bigger, more physical players can rebound.

    Say what you will, but the idea of our guards being the leading rebounders on the team just validates our weakness in the frontcourt.
     
  19. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $7,688
    Butler out-rebounded St. Louis, a team that ranks very highly in defensive rebounding.
     
  20. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

    Money:
    $120
    The rebounding numbers were what they were (IMO) because of how poorly Butler shooting the 3. 3 point misses usually create longer rebounding opportunities, and 10 of Butler's 15 offensive rebounds were gathered in by guys 6'4 and smaller (1 was a team rebound, 1 was by David, and the other 3 were from Brunk and Fowler). Defensively the guards being the leading rebounders is just scheme because of how small they are outside of Brunk and Fowler, and I think the defensive rebounding numbers from that game were at least in part due to how bad SLU is on offense. The 2 best offensive teams that Butler has played in Ole Miss and Florida, Butler got beat on the glass. They're also much worse on the defensive glass than last year. Now I think that is more personnel related than scheme related, but it is true thus far.

    While it didn't necessarily pop up in the offensive numbers for St. Louis outside of Javon Bess, I do believe that Butler will have an issue defending bigger 3 and 4 men with their 4 guard lineup, and I don't believe that Jorgensen, McDermott, Baddley or David are to the point yet to exploit the mismatch while they are on offense. I think you (or someone) had posted that JGB will have to spend some time defensively at the 4 when Butler has to defend bigger 4 men because of that, and I would tend to agree. Next year with Nze and possibly Golden or Hastings (and then shifting McDermott, Tucker and David to the 3) this hopefully won't be as much of an issue, but this year, it's going to be something that some teams will be able to exploit, and IU and about half the teams in the Big East will have the opportunity to do that.
     

Share This Page