Butler Bulldogs (6-2) vs Northern Illinois (5-3) - 12/8

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by Lukas Harkins, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    1. How do you not know where to be?

    It’s really not simple which is why it takes a while to learn. You have to look at where you are on the floor and where the ball is, where your man is and what he’s doing and react accordingly. You don’t only have assignments when your man has the ball. You have assignments at all times. There are gap assignments, and rotations regardless if you’re ball side or weak side. If you don’t play good gap defense you’re susceptible to drives from the perimeter.

    You also have to know what’s happening with defending screens, and scouting reports. Are we helping off a shooter? Are we closing our high or short?

    2. Got any examples

    Watch the last two possessions of the brown game before he got pulled. I think in the second half.

    3. There are several on our roster who struggle.

    Much more of our off ball defensive struggles come when guys get screened more so than getting lost.


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  2. theenforcer13

    theenforcer13 #barlowing

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    I'm going to trust the official Butler sports website over a David Woods article but to each his own. It's also physically obvious Baldwin put on weight in the offseason. The idea that someone who weighs more could be slower is absurd? Haha ok.
     
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  3. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    You’re going to trust a roster that has every single player’s weight listed ending in a 5 or 0? That right there tells you that it’s not legit.


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  4. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    Does the S&C coach not know how to work a scale? Or lied to D woods? Or woods just made it up? You’re gonna go with one of those?


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  5. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

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    That right there tells me that Butler rounds player weights to the nearest five pounds. Whether you can trust people who play so fast and loose with the facts is for you to decide.
     
  6. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Without any knowledge of their real weights there is no evidence there that suggests there is any truth to this. We know the Butler roster is incorrect. Guessing “how incorrect” is a fools game.


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  7. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    The question is whether KB is a step slower. I have seen no real evidence of that. I suppose it is possible but unlikely. BU did not update the roster weight last season. I also think that there is a strong likelihood KB would have added some lbs. in between his frosh and sophomore seasons.
     
  8. theenforcer13

    theenforcer13 #barlowing

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    It's not a direct quote, so yes I am going with Woods being wrong.
     
  9. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    So Woods spoke with the strength and conditioning coach and wrote a story about players' conditioning/weight, and in your mind he's more likely to be wrong about a player's weight than your impressions based on watching him on the court?
     
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  10. theenforcer13

    theenforcer13 #barlowing

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    So Butler's athletic departments lists weights every year, and in your mind they're more likely to be wrong by 20 pounds re: a player's weight than your impression based on an article from a beat writer who has been incorrect about innumerable things over the years?

    He physically looks like he put on muscle from last season. And in my opinion, is slower. Which makes sense because he weighs more.
     
  11. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think you understand what a strength coach does.


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  12. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it really is kind of simple. I'm not going to beat this to death. This is silly. David isn't "lost" on defense. Inexperienced yes. Gotta play consistently from game to game to get a feel for the flow. As you probably know from your experience. Really don't require a lesson on playing defense (there are many defenses, and not all reflective of the approach in your description.) But if that makes you happy, knock yourself out.

    So I went back and looked for the examples you suggested in the Brown game. Luckily, still had it on the DVR. First half, David gets in at about 11:40. Less than a minute later he double teams the post, steals the ball. And less than a minute after that, dives for a long rebound, secures it, and gets fouled. Really active and aggressive on D, but only registers a little over three minutes in the first half. The man he is guarding on each possession doesn't score, doesn't rebound, has no assists. In fact, no one on Brown scores a point. Butler 7, Brown 0, while David played. What I did like is that unlike others on the team, David is a paint protector. Instead of following his man way out to the perimeter on every possession, as a weak side defender he remained in the paint with his hands up, at least offering some presence in the paint. Sure wish our two 5's would do that on D a whole lot more often. So in the first half, sure looked like he knew what he was supposed to do and where to be.

    In the second half, I believe I found the two possessions you point to, the last two before he left the game. The first, Baddley guarding #4, Brunk guarding #5 out high on the right side. Simple pick and roll.... 5 dribbles to 4, hands off to 4, 5 rolls toward the bucket, gets pass back from 4 and has an uncontested path for layup. On that play, Brown was running back screens and motion off the ball. David guarding 0, with his man only about 5 to 8 feet away from this pick and roll play (so technically "weak side," but not the typical distance away from the ball when you think "weak side"), at the top of the key. Because of the motion, David did indeed make a mistake and turned his head to the play for a second and didn't rotate down when he should have, had he kept his eye on ball. A little surprising, because he displays a pretty good awareness on most plays. On this one, he was in the right place, where he should have been. He just failed to rotate down. I'll give you that one, with a caveat. Here's who I blame....1st, why do we pull our 6-11 post 20 feet from the bucket to defend players who haven't shown a perimeter game? Obviously the coaches have made the decision that protecting the paint isn't the first priority in the defensive schemes Butler plays. There are a lot of effective defensive sets with paint protection as the first and foremost objective, and schemes are set accordingly. It's the coaches call on how they want to play D. That's fine, but this defensive approach is also going to expose the middle a lot. With a protect the paint philosophy first, Brunk and Fowler would rarely leave the paint (they are slow to recover anyway, especially Fowler). 2nd, on this play, why didn't Brunk and Baddley talk to one another and switch and one of the pick up the man with ball and the other the cutter? This was not a perimeter hedge play. Take a look at it. Still, I do blame David, too, who turned his head and didn't rotate down. David isn't the only player who turns his back to the play at times. You see it every game. The 2nd incident is Brunk 20 feet from the bucket guarding #5 (Howard). David, on the weak side, in the paint with his arms up. #5 has the ball and easily takes Brunk off the dribble driving to the bucket, so David, defending in the paint, leaves his man, takes a step up, and stops the ball penetration from Brunk's man, preventing an uncontested layup. But #5 makes a nice pass to David's man, now open, because David left him to stop the penetration. Not sure how this is David's fault. Does the right thing by stopping the ball. At the time out David was replaced as McD and Jorgensen also re-entered the game. Brown had just cut the lead to 14 and Jordan was putting the starting lineup back in. David wasn't necessarily pulled for bad defense, although I'm sure Jordan wasn't happy, until he viewed the tape. So those are the two plays that show how much David is lost?

    We're not bad on defense, but we still don't possess the best perimeter defenders. We do need to pressure the ball on every possession and make it difficult for the opponent to run their offense, playing man or zone. Still, you're also going to run in to a whole lot of athletic players at this level and we'll get taken on the perimeter. It's going to happen. And when you do you need to protect the paint behind them. Pulling Brunk and Fowler out to the perimeter ALL THE TIME (is every opponent post player a perimeter threat?) doesn't make sense to me on several levels. Rebounding position, deterrent in the middle, help side D, protect bigs from fouls away from the bucket, on and on. I just don't see the opponent's 5 out on top being that much of a playmaker and putting the ball on the floor. And why chase them out their if they don't shoot the 3? If we get beat I would rather make them beat us from outside rather than shooting in the paint and layups.

    Wasted for too much time on this back and forth on this topic. Bottom line, David isn't the greatest defender, no doubt he'll have lapses and make mistakes and will just plain get beaten at times, just like every other player on this team, but he is a long way from being lost or being our worst defender, as you claim. Citing two plays from a contest two games ago that can be argued either way is really not much to back up your position. As I stated in my original post, liked the way he and Baddley played together on both ends of the floor against No. Ill. Both active on both ends and aren't afraid to go after those 50 50 balls either. No need to reply. I'm done with this subject.
     
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  13. ButlerNut

    ButlerNut Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    For not beating this to death...I think you even outdid Sonbog...

    TLDR

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  14. Delivery Dawg

    Delivery Dawg New Member

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