Butler Bulldogs at Xavier Muskateers - 11/13 - 4:00 PM

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by firedupkaren, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    They call it Over Reaction Monday in the NFL. Everyone always overreacts to a small sample size, both good and bad. College basketball fans do the same thing.
     
  2. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    Butler had a few lapses on D, but overall I didn't think it was that bad. Xavier only scored 62 points, and they really played pretty well to get those 62. It wasn't championship defense or anything, but it hardly killed them.

    I still think it simply came down to not making plays. If this team wants to go anywhere Clarke has to make plays. If he plays like he did tonight this team will be mid-pack in the A10 at best. I think he will play a lot better moving forward though.
     
  3. butlerfan

    butlerfan New Member

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    Never did I think Travis Taylor and Jeff Robinson would combine for 14-23 from the floor, 32 pts and 17 boards.

    That's the most disappointing aspect of this game. Some of that happened thru help defense mistakes, but also they beat us one on one too.

    I am comfortable with Clarke, Dunham and Jones. Jones had 5 TO's today, but I don't think he has quite figured out his niche offensively yet.

    We have to develop a better inside/outside game. X just loaded up on the perimeter today. Give them credit defensively, it was great scheme. Marshall was 3-10 and took about 6-7 really bad shots. Smith was AWOL in the second half. Woods had a tough time all around. Fromm looked rush. Jones could only score 1 FG today.

    This game reminded me alot of games vs Valpo, Green bay, Detroit last year where our BIGS got beat individually. To me the rebounding stats in this game were skewed. It was 29 to 28 in X's favor, we shot so bad it gave us 10 offensive rebounds. There were just way too many breakdowns defensively and not enough versatility on offense.

    One of the more disappointing games in the last couple years if you ask me. I really thought we would execute alot better vs X's defense.
     
  4. IndyDawgs

    IndyDawgs Active Member

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    This isn't a small sample size. We have all of last season too. This team realistically only added Dunham and Clarke and lost Hopkins (the one guy who could open things up for Clarke and Dunham). Guys 3-5 on the floor are not A10 talent. Very few on this roster actually are.
     
  5. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    Adding Clarke and Dunham is huge though. And despite his horrible game today, I think it's kind of ridiculous to say Jones isn't A10 talent. Same with Marshall. There are obviously issues at the 5, but there aren't many A10 teams who do have good, consistent offensive options at the center position. Remember many "experts" predicted Butler would have one of the best A10 frontcourts this year.
     
  6. Butler1970

    Butler1970 New Member

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    Smith isn't even a good Horizon League player. There is no way he could make it to the NBA. His foot work is bad, he doesn't play hard, gets pushed off the block too easily and doesn't know how to post up. I said three years ago that he needed to go to a big mans camp. I said a few weeks ago that I would take Fromm over Smith any day and that doesn't mean much about Fromm.
    [hr]
    ButlerWay you could have written this same analysis of Butler a year ago and would have been just as insightful. The problem the team has is limited offensive threats beyond Clarke, Dunham and Marshall. Opponents don't really need to guard Jones, Barlow, Stigall, Fromm, Smith or Woods. The front court beyond Marshall is very weak. Thus just double up whenever Clarke or Dunham have the ball. Unless things change and dramatically the Dawgs should petition to get back into the Horizon League. At least they will be rested for surfing. [hr]
    For once I have to agree with you. Who was in charge of recruiting since Hayward and Mack were recruited? Could you imagine how bad this would be had Clarke not transferred and Dunham went elsewhere?
     
  7. steelydan

    steelydan New Member

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    Butler definitely runs a perimeter oriented offense, and Xavier showed the entire country how to shut Butler down: guard the perimeter tight. It's games like this when we miss someone like Hop, because no one was penetrating and getting to the basket. If our interior post offense was better we could throw it down low and get easy buckets, because Xavier was not going to double down in the post with all the shooters we have on the floor. But we couldn't score in the post, so Xavier just kept guarding the perimeter and spreading the floor. Smith and Marshall were 1 on 1 in the post and couldn't score! If you get those two guys going down low, you make Xavier guard the post tighter and force the perimeter open, which eliminates your need for a penetration guard like Hop. I'm fine with them running the offense through the perimeter first, but that turns you into a 1 dimensional team if you can't score anywhere else. And that is EXACTLY what Xavier exploited tonight.
     
  8. peeps112

    peeps112 Well-Known Member

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    Dakich called it perfectly. Butler got out-toughed. Brad preaches toughness (TGHT), and today we got punked. Sure, there were some bad calls against us. Sure, we missed some shots. But, overall, they just outmuscled us. Especially inside. Smith did his usual (drop passes, miss layups, hang outside), Woods was pathetic defensively, Fromm never once went inside, and Marshall was invisible defensively. Credit to Robinson and Taylor, but the fact they had superstar games shows what a dud this was.

    Reminded me some of the Louisville game a few years ago where we just got blitzed off the bus. But X isnt near as good as Louisville was, and we weren't near as tough as we were then.

    Have no doubt we will be better next week, and I am glad to see Brad dispense with the courtesy start of Stigall in the second half (what is the point?). Overall, he needs one of the front four, or more ideally, to grow a sack and man up down low.
     
  9. steelydan

    steelydan New Member

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    +1
     
  10. Butler1970

    Butler1970 New Member

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    We should get this figured out by the Hanover game and look like world class then and win our second game.
     
  11. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    They were skewed, but not the way you think. It looks like Butler actually had 3 team rebounds while Xavier had 0, so Butler won the rebounding category straight up. But to look at things more accurately, Butler had a defensive rebounding rate of 78.3% compared to 64.9% for Xavier. To flip those around, Butler had an offensive rebounding rate of 35.1% to 21.7% for Xavier. Butler dominated the glass. It's not typical to see a team win the rebounding battle straight up when they lose the FG% battle by such a wide margin. It's the one thing they did really well.
     
  12. Butler1970

    Butler1970 New Member

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    I have to agree that the Dawgs did fairly well rebounding and held Xavier to 62 points while they shot very well. But offensively the solutions are limited. The Dawgs used to be considered to be very physical. But that was when we had Matt Howard. Hopefully we have that type of player coming in next year.
     
  13. ButlerGoalie

    ButlerGoalie Well-Known Member

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    SOFT.

    That sums it up in one word. I haven't seen such a soft team from Butler, probably since I graduated in 1997. If you all think Smith is soft, you should have watched Rolf Van Rijn "patrol" the middle.

    The good news is that most of the issues from today can be fixed. The bad news is that like last season, when we are cold shooting the ball, we won't beat anyone.

    Woods' defense is pretty terrible. He was getting blown by consistently.

    Dunham's defense is either poor or he hasn't learned the system sufficiently. You can't bite on head fakes multiple times. After selling out, Redford twice hit wide open threes.

    Barlow can't hang in the A10. I think that argument is pretty much dead. The fact that he'll be heavy in the rotation this season says a lot. When he and Woods are on the floor together, the defense simply rotates to double Clarke and Dunham.

    Smith is what he is and he's not a dominant big man. Settling for 5 foot jump hooks is not the answer.

    Give credit where it's due. Xavier is the A10 team that is most familiar with us given the series we've played the last few years and it showed today. They gave the entire league a blueprint for beating us and if our bigs don't step up, it's going to be long season. Mack completely outcoached Stevens today and it wasn't even close. The team didn't look prepared at all and, in fact, looked lost at times.

    As others have pointed out, this game is a prime example of how Hopkins' absence will hurt this team. Whether the Clarke PG experience ever works or not, not having anyone who can penetrate and create on his own will result in what we saw today. Teams camping on the 3 point line and taunting us to beat them with Smith.

    Ultimately, I think a lot of the issues can be fixed, but I think a lot of fans got a rude awakening of what to expect in the A10 this season. Hopefully the team got the ass kicking they need to turn things around, but in the end, I'm worried about where the ceiling is for this team.

    I don't even want to look past this year, because it's not pretty.
     
  14. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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    I don't think it's as bad looking past this season, provided they get a good recruiting class for 2014. The problems on this team are in the post and the point. I think both of those MIGHT be addressed in the 2013 class thus far, and if they get the right spring signing or transfer, they should be in okay shape, and if they get the right guys in 2014, they'll be in better shape.

    The problem's been the 2009 - 2011 recruiting classes and the lack of having someone that's more than a role player in those classes. It will take a couple years to flush them out and replace them with talent that can compete with the A-10. I would say it's player development, but it's really not. It's a lot easier to get a guy to want to play defense that can already shoot, pass and dribble after about 10 years of organized basketball. It's a lot harder to teach a guy that can defend, dribble and pass how to shoot after 10 years of organized basketball. AKA, it's a lot harder to teach skill than it is to teach effort. Today illustrated one big thing. Even with only about 2/3rds of their scholarship players, Xavier simply is more talented top to bottom than Butler. In the only 2 years that Butler won this matchup, it was at least debatable, but at this point, it's not even close. Dunham and Clarke would be the only players that would get significant minutes at Xavier, and even then, it would be in the same role that Brad Redford already has. However, it is only one game, and hopefully they'll get something figured out by Monday.
     
  15. Levinator

    Levinator New Member

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    I'm sorry "Title"- but your arrogance of how much better BUTLER is over the A-10 teams is what started any fun with me on this site. Well- now you're trying to go back on you reword that you'd guarantee Butler goes over.500 in A-10 and easily destroy teams like GW, Dusquense etc. I find it classic you are already distancing yourself and getting attacked on your own site. You're 0-1 in the A-10. You currently stand behind GW. This is going to be an AWESOME season !
    BTW- I think you guys have excellent discourse about your team. It's just so funny reading some posters on here who disrespected many of us A10 teams and we also won't forget. You just can't easily beat any of us. That's why its so much fun.
    Enjoy the rest of the internal banter
     
  16. But61ler

    But61ler Member

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    The Xavier game was non-conference. Butler has not played an A10 game.
     
  17. Butler1970

    Butler1970 New Member

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    I for one had very high hopes for this season. That was probably due to the two runs to the NBA final which was due mostly to a tenacious defense and good players that played tough. I need to temper those aspirations. I also must accept it that Smith will never be anything on the floor than potential that never happened. The point guard issue is clear but if we could get it inside to someone who could do something with it that wouldn't be that important. Hopkins drove the lane because he knew Smith couldn't do anything other than get in the way.
     
  18. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member

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    Levinator. Study up. The duds are the duds and GW is one. Really losing to Youngstown State? Granted YSU beat an SEC team, but when was the last time Georgia was good?
     
  19. Ignatius J. Reilly

    Ignatius J. Reilly Well-Known Member

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    Can we not get in a fight with a random GW fan? It's stupid and clogs the board.
     
  20. butlerfan

    butlerfan New Member

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    http://blogs.indystar.com/butler/2012/11/13/no-easy-solutions-for-butler/
     

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