Does Butler need a new starting lineup?

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by theenforcer13, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. theenforcer13

    theenforcer13 #barlowing

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    The Dawgs have come out flat quite a few times this year - the players have said numerous times in the media this is a problem. Yet it keeps happening. Is it "energy"? Something else? No leader? Coaches?

    If I'm Vall here's who I start against Georgetown: Thompson, Baldwin, McD, Tucker, Brunk. In games against power conference teams this season we are essentially rolling with a 7-8 man rotation. Jorgensen, Baddley, Fowler would round it out. Could see David/Golden getting spot minutes if guys are in foul trouble. Really don't understand burning the Golden RS once Tucker was able to play.

    I know Fowler/Brunk's minutes are essentially a wash... just feel like Joey brings more energy/desire. Fowler has been regressing since his sophomore year. Go with the guy who has upside and superior stats. Jorgensen is such a streaky player - not sure what to do with him. Heading into the BE, I think he is more of an asset off the bench. Tucker is an underrated rebounder, and with the way we got worked on the boards yesterday, I think you need more length out there for league play.

    Interested to hear some thoughts...
     
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  2. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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    I think in the Dayton and Florida games it was energy. Saint Louis I think they came out with good enough energy, missed some shots, got discouraged and then Baldwin started forcing things. I do think the vocal player leadership is lacking in that it doesn't seem like the guys really get into one another on the court when things aren't going well. If the coaching staff is having to spend time trying to get these guys up for games, that's time wasted that could be spent game planning or something else more productive.

    Honestly, I don't have any problem with your starting lineup. I do think the defense would suffer a little, but honestly I'm not sure there's a major differences in the potential lineups (really shuffling between Brunk and Fowler and Jorgensen and Tucker), which why it's hard to have an idea if a change in the starting 5 would have a significant impact on how the team plays. Hopefully the coaches are clued more into it if a change is to be made, because making a change to try something vs. knowing it's going to help the team's performance.
     
  3. Gregory Roach

    Gregory Roach Active Member

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    As I mentioned in the FL thread, the standing joke among season ticket holders in section 204 is Jordan continuing to start and give equal minutes to Fowler. That cannot be a great motivator to Brunk, David or Golden. Fowler should become third Big off the bench behind Brunk and Golden. He has significantly regressed with more minutes played.

    I am with you on Golden. I was SHOCKED when Golden came off the bench vs. Irvine. Still don't get that decision. However, now that he is playing, bring him as the second big and move Fowler down the rotation.

    Last year, it was common knowledge that Jorgnesen did better as sixth man off the bench. Yet Jordan continues to force PJ as a starter when he now has another option, Tucker. Why not try that experiment and see if it helps PJ find a bit more consistency? Could it really be worse than PJ's most recent string, 3 poor performances (Indiana, Presbyterian and Florida) vs one good outing (Irvine)? What does Jordan really have to lose with such an experiment??

    This will probably be anathema to many, but McDermott often needs to sit in situations where is ineffective. If he and Tucker where to both start, than those mins would go to David. Too often I seen this great kid struggling because is undersized and out muscled starting as the only forward. Jordan needs to play him at the appropriate position for his body type. That is NOT POWER FORWARD. Starting Tucker and McDermott together would allow McBuckets to play the wing and be the full time snipper he is.

    This team has a lot of tools. Unfortunately, the lineup hasn't changed as more capable players have emerged. That demonstrates a coaching staff which is stuck for whatever set of reasons...loyalty, lack of confidence in newer players, etc.

    Given his determination to stick with the current starting five, I would be SHOCKED to see something different from Jordan.
     
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  4. I Am Butler

    I Am Butler Well-Known Member

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    My one comment on Golden is that I appreciate LaVall ultimately leaving the decision to the player. Not every play wants to stay in college 5 years. Unless it was discussed prior, they signed with intentions of being a 4 year player. I wish Golden would have used the RS this year, but ultimately respect his choice and respect LaVall even more for allowing it to BE Goldens choice.
     
  5. Gregory Roach

    Gregory Roach Active Member

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    Agreed.
     
  6. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

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    When I played football, I wasn’t being played for the first several games. Coach said it was for redshirt. I told him I wasn’t going to stay for a 5th year, I was going to medical school. After telling him this for a couple weeks, I was on every special teams my freshman year.

    And although he was fired half way through the season (but finished out the year), I respect him in respecting my wishes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
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  7. jeff

    jeff Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Tucker starting but it appears Lavall is unhappy with something, not sure if it's his defense or something else. Yesterday after Tucker seemed to be the only one whose shot was on and yet he barely saw the court in the 2nd half.

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  8. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    I don’t get this or the prior two posts before it. You guys think I’m walking up to Joe Paterno and telling him what I want to do? You think Bama players are telling Nick Saban what they want to do? Dabo at Clemson benched his starter for a better freshman. Or in basketball - doubt Bobby Knight or Coach K ever let a player make a decision.

    Golden shouldn’t be making decisions - Lavall should. He’s paid 1M per year or whatever to be the head coach, and he’s in charge.

    If the players get to make decisions, the team is lost.

    Someone explain the logic Bc I don’t get it at all... maybe I’m missing something.
     
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  9. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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    Golden isn't making the decision as to whether or not he gets in the game, but he does get to be part of the decision as to whether or not he wants to be redshirted. On a football team, it's a lot easier for a coach to be authoritarian and get away with it. You've got 100 guys vs. 13, so if you don't respect the wishes of one or two the players, it's a lot easier to lose the team vs. football where you can dismiss the opinions of a few.

    Times are different now too - coaches don't have the ability to act like Knight or Keady did.
     
  10. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

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    So if I tell the coach, hey I’m not staying for a fifth year, what do they GAIN by red-shirting? If I have totally made up my mind, and if he thought I was good enough to play my freshman year, what do they gain by sitting me for a year, if I’m not coming back for a fifth? You end up getting played for experience for future years. Sure, he can argue, you may change your mind by fourth year (which he did), and I insisted I wasn’t staying.
    Yes, no doubt at a school like Alabama or PSU, I don’t disagree with you (but I don’t understand how Dabo starting Lawrence over Bryant has anything to do with this context) as we’re talking about guys with significant chance of being drafted (in Lawrence). But I’m not getting drafted, and I have plans for life after football.


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  11. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    That’s fair. And the Dabo thing was a coaching making an authoritarian decision about a player and how that’s more the culture in football. It made more sense in my head than what I typed out lol... sorry about that.

    And maybe there are nuanced differences between basketball and football that I don’t understand. In my world, “hey coach I’m not saying for a 5th year”... they’re going to tell me to pound sand or transfer.
     
  12. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

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  13. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member

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    That relinquished authority continues to be part of the problem. There has to be a balance that can be reached.
     
  14. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes they do. Will they? Probably not. But running out there time after time undermatched will lead to an nit bid.
     
  15. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member

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    This merits a shakeup in the lineup. Perhaps it could serve as a catalyst. The bench is normally a great tool for motivation? Especially if the seat is hard enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
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  16. Tiles52

    Tiles52 Active Member

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    I don't profess to know the ins and outs of redshirting, but I would tend to think that the players are involved to varying degrees in the decision-making of whether or not they redshirt whether it be in football or basketball. I am sure that there are multiple reasons why a kid may not want to stick around school for 5 years. While I admit I was surprised about Golden giving up his redshirt; I also think it very well could have happened later in the season if anything happened to Fowler or Brunk, so he might as well start getting some game experience, and he very well could give us some meaningful minutes at the 4 later on this season; which we seem to be in dire need of.
     
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  17. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Also if you redshirt guys they can still leave after they graduate to go elsewhere so by not redshirting them you maximize how much time you have them even if not necessarily maximizing ability


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  18. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

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    Both Golden and LJ know Fowler isn’t cutting it. That is why Golden has seen the court and will see more minutes.
     
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  19. SnoopDawg

    SnoopDawg Active Member

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    5 - Brunk (25) Fowler (10) Golden (5)
    4 - Tucker (25) McDermott (10) Golden (5)
    3 - McDermott (20) Baddley (8) Jorgensen (5) David (7)
    2- Baldwin (20) Jorgensen (20)
    1- Thompson (30) Baldwin (10)

    I.M.O.
     
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  20. MBA2003

    MBA2003 Active Member

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    Just for fun IMHO,

    Thompson
    Baddley
    Tucker
    Golden
    Brunk

    Play big at every position and maybe the rebounding gets better. Now I will duck from the tomatoes. Lol.

    Go Dawgs
     

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