Game Thread: Butler vs Michigan State (11/17)

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ConnersvilleBulldog, Nov 15, 2021.

  1. Dawgedd

    Dawgedd Well-Known Member

    Yes, I share these concerns. Does AT make us better? Yes, even if last night he was bad. But does he also cost development of some promising freshman? Yes and especially when Tate returns. We don’t have as much of a logjam in the front court but Golden is definitely costing Wilmoth minutes.

    Last night gave us a glimpse of a lose/lose situation—freshman robbed of minutes and 5th year seniors sucking. Hopefully it’s an anomaly.

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  2. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    I think everything you say here is fair and accurate. I'm torn on whether or not I see it as a problem, however. Butler is never going to win big by having like three first roung picks and a bunch of players to get them the ball. If we have players getting upset over playing time-I think its good if they leave. That's not the culture we want here-and we don't have anyone save for maybe Harris and maybe Taylor that are actually good enough to be correct in their assessments.

    If guys get frustrated and want to leave, we would be losing a replaceable player that doesn't fit the culture. That's cool with me. Even if it is Taylor or Harris (seemingly wouldn't apply) I don't see either of them as being guys that are so talented that upholding our culture doesn't matter.
    schoops likes this.
  3. Mr X

    Mr X Super Moderator

    I'm purely speculating here but wouldn't be surprised suspending the team's leader for reason people on board have described as wouldn't happen anywhere else in country has currently hurt the players respect for coaching staff.
  4. Dawgdad

    Dawgdad Well-Known Member

    COVID and transfer portal changes have made recruiting, putting together and maintaining a team more challenging.
    That being said, I don’t like what I see. Recruiting is so much more than getting the highest rated dudes you can get, planning out recruiting classes by positions, and trying to make things work. Everyone has talent in major conferences.

    Look at what Painter has built at Purdue…consistently recruiting to a system/identity. I don’t see that going on at Butler any longer.
    Heck, I don’t even know if we have an identity anymore.
    HoosierDawg, bmradio99 and dawgs2014 like this.
  5. Staxawax

    Staxawax Well-Known Member

    Apparently we played last night? I was consumed with Survivor and The Masked Singer. Who won?

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  6. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    We don't.
  7. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    The worse home loss in 29 is not an aberration. Some of us seen this coming. I did not remotely expect this.
  8. Danville Bulldog

    Danville Bulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Everything seems so sad and depressing when I think about what happened last night. I must stay off the board for a few days.
    BoyGeoff and znelson15 like this.
  9. Butler_Boatdawgs456

    Butler_Boatdawgs456 Member

    Some of you want to develop young players but do you really wanna see more of Luko and Taylor?

    Taylor’s best role this season will be spark off the bench. Luko is gonna be really fun but you don’t want MORE of those slow ass minutes right now.

    By conference play it’s hopefully:



    That’s not a bad rotation… if they get there.

    Also, worst loss at hinkle stuff is a bit overdone. It was 21 points. It happens. Again everyone calm down. Wait till January to start calling for heads.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
    SnoopDawg and ButlerAlumDad716 like this.
  10. nicklas_early

    nicklas_early Well-Known Member

    Was I thrilled with last night? Nope. Do I think the team is much better than how they performed? Yes. Am I giving the team a pass? No.

    However, I think we need to remind ourselves that last night, despite not having a little number (a rank) next to their name, Butler lost to a Tom Izzo led Michigan State team. The "Michigan State isn't even that good" narrative is just mind boggling to me. Maybe I am in the minority ... but sometimes perspective is a good thing. Izzo + the #12 ranked recruiting class (that includes a potential NBA lottery pick) + surrounded by talented upperclassman = Butler is going to have to play a really solid game all around to win.

    Did Butler do that last night? Not even close. Do I believe Butler can typically compete with Michigan State at Hinkle? Of course, and they should - but let's not fire the staff, kick the AD out, and run kids into the transfer portal because our team lost to Michigan State.

    It was the fourth game. We are still waiting for Bo to come into the fold, AT to settle into place, and the young guys to find their role. I still believe that that Butler is a top half of the BE and NCAA bubble team. Hopefully the team can move forward faster than some of the posters on this board/on Twitter. :)
    ButlerAlumDad716 likes this.
  11. Baseline

    Baseline Well-Known Member

    Basketball is FAR MORE physical than ever. Away from the ball especially. The play in the post last night was atrocious. Of course the officials make a random call or two in the 2nd half to try and "clean it up". It's a joke.
    Having a post player who can pass or cause a double team is still a huge benefit. It forces defenses to move and rotate. It also keeps a shot blocker from straying too far away from his man. Butler doesn't have this, thus, our guards got their layups blocked countless times last night.
  12. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    This is insightful.

    I think Lavall actually has tried to recruit a certain type of player, it just hasn’t worked out.

    It seems there seems to be a trend of length, rangy guys that have some bounce and can shoot. I’d say versatility has been strongly prioritized.

    Out of everyone he has signed, only Golden, Bolden, JMM and Smits don’t seem to have positional versatility. I’d guess it’s not a surprise that those guys have struggled quite a bit finding their “niche”. Bolden is a clear specialist however.

    With the except of Smits, Golden, Harris and Tate, almost every player signed has pretty good length and the ability to guard wings and guards or wings and posts. Tate and Harris both have some guard versatility.

    We have some major culture issues though as Lavall’s top two rated recruits have left due to culture issues and his third (coles) also left. Tucker also didn’t use his entire eligible and was the highest rated guy out of high school lavall has brought in. The inability to find talented guys that fit stands out.

    I’d break these down into a couple categories of guys he has signed:

    Looks good:
    Harris-combo guard. Guards 1-2. Scorer who came in with pg reputation. Good offensive player. Seems to be an adequate defender.

    Nze: versatile 4-5. Good mobility and ball skills. Not a great defender but gets the job done for his size. Good rebounder-good scorer.

    Are what they are:
    Bolden: positionally limited. Excellent shooter which fills a need. Can’t do anything else.

    Golden:really only guards the post. A touch of offensive versatility, not a good enough athlete to be more than a rotation player.

    JMM: really only a 5. Looked like he may have some inside out versatility when being recruited. Just not a good enough athlete to be anything more than an emergency player.

    Smits: basically same as mulloy.

    Too soon to tell:

    Hughes-may have some 3/4 versatility.
    Taylor-long guard/wing-could be elite on either end. Hopefully guards 1-3.

    Thomas-athletic guy who shot well in college. College body. Hopefully guards 1-4.

    Tate-Combo guard. Winning background. Probably our best playmaker outside of AT.

    Luko-good sized guard/wing. Shoots okay. Can he adjust to speed/strength.

    Wilmoth-rangy project. Impact defender.
    Guards 2-5. Offensive project at best.

    Hodges: big bodied guard. Can guard almost any position. Good driver hopefully adequate shooter.

    Turnbull: long center who seems to have some bounce and a quick leaper. really have no idea where this is going to go. Love his potential, he seems like he can actually shoot it okay. Not a bad frame but way too weak right now. High risk high reward.

    Transfers/left program:
    Scooby-one of the most talented versatile guys we ever signed. Probably could guard 2-5. Inside out scorer and distributor. We know how this ended.

    Coles:forward/center with some guard skills. Probably like Nze but better. Seemed like a matchup problem.

    Battle-g/f who seemed like the next prolific scorer. Could shoot and was a plus athlete. Didn’t fit culture.

    Tucker-g/f who was a plus athlete-excellent shooter. Zero defensively despite physical gifts. Current pro despite being Soft.

    Hastings: long rangy wing with some bounce and body control. Could guard a lot of positions, shoot decently. Just not good enough.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
    Dawgdad likes this.
  13. Baseline

    Baseline Well-Known Member

    We can't recruit to the level of Creighton, Nova, Seton Hall, St. Johns. As far as your zone comment, I agree totally. How many times did you see us trail a cutter and end up giving him the lane? All that does is cause a big to help on the cutter and then his man has a smaller man switching to guard him. I'm all for trailing cutters when they run from side to side using screens but I hate trailing them across the top or on the weak side. You can only do that if you have rim protection. Ha!
  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    I don't think this is right. Any of it.

    On physicality- we have the following rule changes (off the top of my head) that have been implemented that have decreased the physicality of the game-most by design:

    1. three point line
    2. Defensive three seconds (nba)
    3. Implementation and eventual widening of the restricted arc under the basket (college)
    4. No hand check rules
    5. Automatic foul if you put two hands on a player you are guarding
    6. automatic foul if you impede a driver with the ball with an arm bar
    7. Implementation of stricter flagrant 1 and 2 calls
    8. Rules to prevent jamming and riding cutters
    9. no longer awarding fouls to offensive players who initiate contact while in the act of shooting (nba)
    10. Widening the lane

    These rules are designed to increase freedom of movement and decrease physicality. Logic would stand to reason that they were implemented to address a perceived problem or to achieve a desired result. All rules have punished over physicality. Therefore, logically, its really hard to argue that basketball is more physical than ever-simply on the basis of things being taken out of the game that used to be allowed.

    On the topic of post players being able to pass-certainly it is a nice trait and beneficial to have, but that's not how basketball is really played anymore. Certainly there is an occasional Zsch Edey, but for the most part doubling guys in the post is not beneficial. A post up opportunity is the least efficient shot in basketball -AND a post touch is debatably the hardest situation to generate offense from. If the defense doesn't double-you have four guys who are in prime position to deny a kick out, recover to their guy and get reset-while only leaving a low efficiency contested shot.

    This theory plays out in practice as well.

    If we look at the last 5 title winners only one averages more than 1 apg. If having a post player that could pass out of the post to initiate offense was the key, don't you think it would result in actual baskets?

    Year School Center ppg poss apg
    2021 Baylor Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua 6.4 16.1 0.4
    2019 Virginia Mamadi Diakite 7.4 18.6 0.3
    2018 Villanova Omari Spellman 10.9 17.8 0.8
    2017 North Carolina Kennedy Meeks 12.5 22.6 1
    2016 Villanova Daniel Ochefu 10 21.3 1.7
  15. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    For those interested-here is January 17, 2018 through the end of the season. We ranked 8th during that time period.

    If anyone is interested in finding this-you can filter by dates on

    Baddog-would be interested in hearing which part of this data (based on the results of actually playing the games) you believe is invalid.

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    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  16. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    I can't figure out, last year when we got down big early we stopped playing so damn slow and picked up our pace. The slow place really hurts us, it needs to be much more free movement like that. Instead of stand around. I'm not saying we having the MSU athletes but we do have 15 guys we can use to run up and down. Tate, Harris, Luko, Taylor, Bolden, Groce, AT, Nze, Wilmoth all do better in constant movement than standing, starting and stopping. I just don't get how we are all watching the same game and can't see that. I actually think Ragland is a pretty good coach and I think Omar isn't bad, but outside of them The whole 5 year coaching staff has left a lot to be desired for

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    iluvsnow likes this.
  17. butlerguy03

    butlerguy03 Well-Known Member

    I'm just going to step in here and say, man, you don't like it when someone disagrees with you, eh? Also, I noticed you didn't refute anything he said...and Dawgs2014 is correct. The NBA and NCAA have both been chipping away on physical play year over year with new rules. It's how we ended up with 3-position basketball instead of 5-position (Point, Wing, Big) - with many teams playing 2-position, because talented Big's are so rare.
  18. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    The post about physical play was actually in response to baseline.

    Baddog said that we look terrible and started discussing our poor performance in 2018-which I responded to by saying we actually outperformed expectations by quite a bit and DRAMATICALLY improved over the course of the season. He’s right to criticize us now, but the data just completely refutes any criticisms of coaching in 2018.

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  19. Southside Dawg

    Southside Dawg Active Member

    Calm down everyone its 1 loss to a big time upper echelon program. It seems the expectations of this team are a little to high. We're bringing back the guys from last year that were at best mediocre. After 4 games its clear that most have not progressed. We are not going to beat to many teams if we can't establish some resemblance of a post/interior game, we just dont have good knock down shooters like McDermot, Dunham etc. I feel like Groce and Wilmoth might be our best bet because they are long and athletic, but of course they are always out on the perimeter. Golden is just not getting it done.
  20. butlerguy03

    butlerguy03 Well-Known Member

    Shows me to not pay attention to the threads. haha...maybe I should focus on work.

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