Game Thread: Butler vs Michigan State (11/17)

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ConnersvilleBulldog, Nov 15, 2021.

  1. pjohnsto2003

    pjohnsto2003 Well-Known Member

    Chalking this one up to just an off night from everyone and an anomaly right now, aside from starting slow. That’s got to change, or they will get bludgeoned by everyone in conference aside from any teams that end in Paul.

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  2. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User

    Nze's situation puts everyone between a rock and a hard place. I can't imagine him opting for surgery and sitting out essentially the remainder of the season since this is his last go, but not being able to count on him to be consistently available in the lineup makes it really hard to figure out roles and will essentially put the team in the same spot they were last year. If I were advising him, I'd say bite the bullet now and get the surgery (assuming that's on option) so he's further along for whatever his plans are for after Butler, but I can't blame him no matter what decision he makes.

    As for the game and the season, it's going to be a rough one. Wednesday may be as bad as it gets, but this team just isn't very good this year. Chalk it up to whatever, but it's going to be a struggle, especially with the non-conference schedule they have. Hopefully whatever they wind up doing after the season gets things moving back in a positive direction. Lickliter had a couple of terrible years here too and was able to turn things around. I can't imagine them canning Jordan after this year, so hopefully he's able to do the same, but I'm not banking on it unless he gets some better talent on the roster (AKA, an elite one-on-one scorer).
  3. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Agreed, if I'm Nze I'm looking out for myself and saying F it, I'm getting the surgery. He knows (better than us) what this team is so why risk an even more serious injury for a team that will be lucky to get to 10 or 11 wins. He has to think about his future at this point.

    My guess is he tries to play through it though. Which I think is a mistake but if he does, I just hope he doesn't damage it too much further. But bumping bodies in the big east isn't too nice on an ailing shoulder.
  4. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    After viewing the game again a few more times, I do think the officiating did a dis-service to both teams. Perhaps it effected BU a little more, but I'm not sure. Neither team was allowed to ever get into a flow or rhythm. It was an extremely ugly game without much continuity.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
  5. Staxawax

    Staxawax Well-Known Member

    I’d argue the Cubs got a mediocre player because of that. But that’s just my opinion and just one example.

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  6. Gregory Roach

    Gregory Roach Well-Known Member

    It was one game but with very disappointing results and I am not speaking of the score. Can this coaching staff adjust and make this team more competitive is the real question.

    When Nze went out in the first half, I turned to my wife and indicated that he if doesn't return this game is over. She doubted me until about the 14 min mark of the second half when she too realized that Golden/JMM (aka the second coming of Nate Fowler) were NEVER going to match up with the MSU interior players. I have my doubts that either player will EVER be able to be effective BE big men. Hence the injury to NZE puts the entire season's success in jeopardy. Not because he is a stud, but because he is the ONLY reliable inside presence on this team (based on performance to date).

    It is this glaring weakness, limited inside presence, that has this team focusing on 3's and AT attempting to make hero moves to the inside that typically result in T/O's whether he is attempting passes (most of the time) or layups. In the first half, there were numerous missed layups (many of which were very makeable) by several different players and inside turnovers (mainly AT and Golden (aka Brick Mitts)). In the second half, Butler attempted to attack the interior in the first 4 mins and then simply began relying on 3's and pull-ups. It doesn't matter how good your shooters are, you will not win a game against a talented opponent without establishing an inside game from which to pivot from. Hence the reason Butler shot 28% for the game against MSU.

    Going forward, the coaching staff must devise an offensive strategy that gets far better ball movement in order to mitigate the glaring lack of a post presence. Without such, the results will not change, regardless of how many shooters or long/athletic players this team has to throw on the court.

    One last item, given the generally ok defense this team is playing, I would consider employing a Shaka Smart type full court pressure (of varying degree) to wear the opponent out and burn shot clock. Why? If Butler posses so many long/athletic guys, they might as well be employed to wear down the opposing team and limit opponent possessions given that they don't seem to be able to contribute that often on the offensive side of the ball. Having said that, I would be shocked to see this coaching staff employ such a strategy...they seem fully committed to the traditional man-to-man and rarely stray from that strategy.

    The one word that seems to define this coaching staff over the last 3 seasons (last season very hard to judge given all the injuries) is STUCK. They seem to be STUCK and unable to adapt to game conditions or adjust for their team's strengths and weaknesses. For me, that is the greatest enigma of the Jordan era.
    znelson15, bubby, jeff and 2 others like this.
  7. knobcreekfan

    knobcreekfan Well-Known Member

    First, I certainly do not think we would have won if the refs did a better job. However, as I mentioned the other day, even the MSU fans sitting by us were complaining about the calls against us. We wouldn’t have won and we did not look good, but the refs made it worse.
    BUcheer likes this.
  8. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    It seems a majority of the time in BE play, the officials attempt to call 2 seperate games. The 1st and the 2nd half are called differently. This group called the entire game inconsistantly. The fans suffered because of it. In no way did they cost BU the game, but they did have negative effect throughout IMHO.
  9. Denverdawg

    Denverdawg Active Member

    Going off my singular experience only, I think there is a wide variety of partial labrum tears. Technology has surely improved, but I had a partial tear in my non-throwing shoulder about 10 years ago. They tried 6 weeks of PT, it didn’t work. I had no problem playing a lot of beer league softball for 6 months. Never popped back out and there was zero pain with softball, but could not swing a golf club or bench even 15lbs dumbbells.

    End up having surgery and it was a solid four month recovery. Again, single experience and different sport, but I’d be surprised if he could be back this season with any effectiveness if he opts for surgery.

    He should do what is best for him, just wish he didn’t have to chose at all.

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  10. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    I've had a partial torn labrum since end of high school and I've managed still some tennis and can throw some but there's definitely things that give me trouble like trying to put any amount weight straight up is a struggle. But I notice I have a limited amount of serves before there's nothing left in it

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  11. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

    Having lived with a torn labrum for years and having had labrum surgery. My advice, don’t have the surgery until after the season if you still want to play as best you can this season. He’s better off wearing a brace. Doing a little rehab, which shouldn’t be that bad with him being an athlete. Not dunking, diving on the floor, and praying he doesn’t get tied up in a jump ball. It’s his left arm. Once he gets used to the brace, his shot shouldn’t be totally screwed and it’s not like his FT% can get worse (I kid). Now, it’s going to be really sore after every game and practice (and super painful if he tears it), but such is life.
  12. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    It really depends on what he wants to do professionally after this season is done. If he wants to do workouts or play overseas fall of 2022, then waiting until March 14th for the surgery would push him right up through July before he can really play again.

    My guess is he gives it a few days/weeks for the swelling and pain to go away before trying to practice. And if he just doesn’t feel right, then he gets the surgery.

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  13. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    We’ve had players with torn labrums in the past have really good careers and we never knew.

    I’d imagine it’s a case by case basis though.

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    tlp63 likes this.
  14. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    A good point that seems to have been forgotten. Because isn't that essentially the entire formula for any success Butler has experienced since Collier coached?

    But I don't suppose ANY coach wants to be honest with himself and admit:

    "Well sh!t. I tried but I simply couldn't get the quality and size of post players we need to run with the big boys. Same thing for the guy before me and the guy before him. Looks like we gotta go to Plan B. It's not gonna look very athletic or flashy, it won't be good for recruiting and the goofs at Butler Hoops Forum will ***** and moan... and we're not gonna always win but hey... there it is. Let's get real and let's get to work!"

    Every program wants the big, tall, uber-athletic future NBA players. Of course!! So many fans on this board have been talking about how and when Butler will start regularly getting those guys. I've always thought that was silly. BU is never going to get the players that UK, KU, Duke, IU, Purdue, OSU routinely snag every year. Or any of the top half of the players of any team in the top conferences.

    You guys got all excited and assumed that because we moved to the Big East we would start automatically recruiting Big East studs with no effort at all. As if it was an entitlement. You all wanted to switch away from Butler ball to some extreme posterizing super-playground runouts. You couldn't wait! And it was OURS, all OURS!

    Butler will never get those guys. Ever. Not without firing all the professors, eliminating 80% of the classes, and dedicating the entire Butler endowment to basketball facilities and staff... and probably not even then.

    The only reasonable thing for all of us to do now is re-calibrate our expectations of what the Butler program can achieve now and in the future. This is actually overdue--we probably should have adjusted expectations right about when BU joined a conference that was, and is, too talented for them--the Big East.

    I guess this sounds bad, huh... but it doesn't have to be. It's just reasonable. It is reality. Remember when beating Wright State, Cleveland State, or UW-Milwaukee twice in one season felt good? Remember when beating one or even two(!) top 25 teams in one season or getting to the Sweet sixteen felt really good?

    I bet you don't. Or you'd pretend you don't.

    Those were good times! But you all have disowned those memories like they embarrass you--they aren't good enough for you; not anymore. If you could be modest and swallow your pride you could get back to those times, you can enjoy Butler basketball again if you can get real.

    I know nobody likes this but... you'll be a lot happier if you just accept the middling year-to-year baseline level of Butler's program and start enjoying BU hoops again for what it is instead of some fantasy you concocted just because incredible luck and some better-than-usual personnel (coaching and team) happened two years in a row.

    Get Real and you can Get Happy.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  15. BoyGeoff

    BoyGeoff Well-Known Member VIP Member

    He has to have the surgery and return in 10 weeks. Play with a torn labrum? That will last 1 -2 games.
    willisbrown likes this.
  16. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

    I’ll take a few Tyler Widemans, Khyle Marshalls, Matt Howards, Andrew Chrabasczs, Andrew Smiths, Joel Cornettes, and more that others can add. We recruited this caliber regardless of conference or league. Why not now.

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    willisbrown likes this.
  17. SnoopDawg

    SnoopDawg Well-Known Member

    I'd argue that we have a few of those types of players on this team now. The difference is the coaching and style of play.

    Think about what Brad Stevens turned Alex Barlow into. Do you not think that a different coach would have a guy like Bryce Golden or Wilmoth playing at an elite level?
    bubby and iluvsnow like this.
  18. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

    It’s quite possible that lack of player development vs recruiting, is the matter. Players I mentioned + others certainly established their capabilities to compete against teams from any conference, and not as flukes.

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  19. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    This is a concept I have been thinking about recently; I have defended player development here but been countered by Hinkle on many of what I believe to be solid development examples. I think Hinkle makes valid points in many instances, but where I have come back to is that I think a lot of guys we have recruited are relatively low upside guys.

    Who has come through our program that *should* be better than they are? Henry Baddley immediately comes to mind for me. Christian David as well, though that’s probably unfair due to injuries. Other than that I think most everyone has had contributions that are pretty much in line with what could be expected given their physical limitations.

    I think you probably like Marshall a lot better than I do, but I think we’ve recruited/retained a lot of guys who may not be physically capable of being a *really* good player. (Golden, Bolden, maybe Simas?, maybe AT?, I’d even argue Harris is already outperforming his athleticism).

    Some of this is okay, but our guys that have really stand out physical traits have graduated or left. Hopefully Taylor and eventually Pierce can help provide more balance.

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  20. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Think about some of the guys who ended up being great players due to development in the past, though. Not many would be considered “high upside” guys - Barlow, Moose, Rose, Chrab, etc. Those are all guys who gave the program a ton in years 3-4 and I wouldn’t consider any of them upside plays (you could maybe add Kam or Sean or Dunham, but their upside was arguably more apparent at the outset than those 4). These are guys who developed into very good college players due to skill development in spite of modest physical gifts, and that development kept the program relevant from 2013-2020.

    Sent from my iPhone, so it’s probably not written all that well

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