Holtmann Telling Recruits OSU "Better Opportunity"

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by Jared Grubbs, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. bmradio99

    bmradio99 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $3,405
    For real. The '13-'14 team was four points away -- two different 2-pt games on a neutral court, one against a top-5 team, the other in overtime -- from entering Big East play undefeated. (And they took Nova to OT the first game.) The team was sloppy during league play, and a lot of that is on coaching. No question Holt was an upgrade, but even Brad Stevens would have had a bumpy ride with that roster. I think 35% of the turnaround was due to Holtmann being a better coach than Brandon Miller, but 65% was due to having Rose Jones back plus a better roster.
     
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  2. knobcreekfan

    knobcreekfan Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention Khyle Marshall struggled at the line and our opponents took advantage of that late in the games.
     
    OldSchoolDawg1983 likes this.
  3. 4636Cornelius

    4636Cornelius Member

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  4. SpartanDawgs

    SpartanDawgs Well-Known Member

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  5. Dawgedd

    Dawgedd Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    The quotes from Pedon, Johnson hurt but I think just continuing to be pissed is not the answer (being pissed was my first reaction). The reason the quotes hurt is because they have some truth in them. Until Butler addresses some structural deficiencies (from the top, with investments--hello, Collier, Danko), we will always have significant disadvantages to the likes of OSU. But, it doesn't have to be that way.
     
  6. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,569
    He also reaped the benefits of Rose Jones getting hurt and the recruitment of Kelan Martin and Tyler Wideman.
     
  7. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,569
    " Certain academic standard here"
     
  8. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,569
    Schools like Butler will never ever close the investment gap with big state universities so we all need to get used to it. The more we spend the more they spend. I know this is not college basketball but an example- University of Texas just redid their football lockers at a cost of $12,000 each for 88 lockers. Think of that- $12,000 for a locker! That wasn't for the locker room just the lockers. No wonder Shaka Smart went to Texas, Archie Miller to IU and Holtmann to OSU. They have virtually unlimited resources. Texas athletic revenue is in excess of $170 million. They have their own country club available to not only their golf team but any athlete. There is no way we can fund $20 million for practice facilities or add waterfalls in cool down rooms. We as avid fans forget that the basketball program is used to generate awareness and more student applicants. Hell Danko is excited if attendance goes up 200-300 or the size of a typical class at OSU or Texas.
     
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  9. Dawg Guy

    Dawg Guy Active Member

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    Everyone has close games - if you did the reverse logic on either of our final four runs... we would have lost in the first couple rounds.
     
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  10. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

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    Just someone else drinking the OSU "holier than thou" koolaid.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  11. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
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    Yeah, it stings to hear them say that - but mostly because it's true. But we can't act like Butler hasn't made monumental strides in the past decade. You don't transform from Horizon to Big East over night.

    When I was in middle school (during the 2001 Sweet 16 season) I had trouble even finding Butler gear - and I lived just an hour outside of Indy. And when I did wear my Butler stuff, it would make my day if anyone even knew what Butler was. Hell, before Matt committed to Butler there'd be people in Connersville that didn't know where Butler was.

    Now you see as many kids in Indiana wearing Butler stuff as IU or Purdue.

    Butler's rise has been crazy, and I don't see it plateauing yet. We are just 4 years into the Big East. Butler is still growing into its high-major self. It will take time, but I'm positive that eventually the West Gym will be transformed into at least a passable practice facility. And I'm sure Butler is getting close to being able to offer a deserving coach $2.5M to stay. Rome wasn't built in a day - but at least Butler's arrow (as is has since the last 1990's) is still trending up.
     
  12. Dawg Guy

    Dawg Guy Active Member

    Money:
    $425
    Sums up part of the issue... In addition to resources - these are the state schools in their respective states and have a history of being good at their sports. It's not like OSU sucks at basketball but has money. They have a history of being good at basketball and having a great program more so than we do. Same goes for a number of those state schools. When the programs are down, like IU has been it still takes time for the programs to lose their mystique with recruits and fans and it is very easy to get the program back to full speed. Even if Butler had lockerrooms that were the same as OSU, they would not be the state school in a state with tons of top recruits, they wouldnt have the same alumni base (both in general and athletics), and they wouldn't have the same deep rooted fans/draw.

    We have a great program, but it is still not at the same level of the top tier schools and won't be there until we are very successful (a couple of 20 wins season in a row isnt enough) and can sustain that for 20+ years at the highest level of competition. The Big East is good, but gets a lot of credit for what it was historically and Villanova which was once the 4th-6th best team in the conference now dominates (look at their win record in conference, I realize we swept them last year). We need to win the conference, make deep tourney runs, consistently if we are going to get to the level of OSU or the others.

    It is naive to think that there is much Danko and Collier can do to close the gap.
     
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  13. Dawg Guy

    Dawg Guy Active Member

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    Ironic from what has become the most 'holier than thou' fan base in college basketball.
     
  14. Dawgedd

    Dawgedd Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,188
    I get that this is reality. We can't (and don't need) the fanciest facilities. We just need to have some basics (e.g. practice facility) that don't require us having OSU's budget. We should let the big schools chase after who can have the best locker competitions and the like. Perhaps if recruits are simply looking for the fanciest add-ons, Butler isn't a good match.

    But (correct me if I'm wrong)I do think schools our size are beating us with critical (not extraneous) infrastructure. They have bigger recruiting budgets and better practice facilities. All that is to say, as a smaller school that recently got a bump in cash (buyout, joining the big east), we can increase investment in a few key areas without getting carried away with having all the the flashiest and biggest spaces. This will increase our recruiting profile such that we can occasionally land top 35 players and consistently get top 50-150 guys, while still finding the sleepers (Baldwin).

    The nice thing about basketball (as compared with football) is that you only need 5 players on the court and 7 or so to compete for a national championship. Moreover, positions in basketball are of decreasing importance such that you have flexibility any given year on who to recruit (as opposed to being constrained by getting a specific position). One model is to go after the absolute top rated players (Kentucky). These are the blue bloods and compete for national championships every year because they get several top 25 players. Butler cannot do this now nor do I think they should aim for this (in part for the inherent advantages of schools to lure these kids as you ascribe above). However, I think the other model is to consistently get top 50-150 guys (maybe an occasional top 35 guy) but have them stay for 4 years. Under this model you only need to get 2-3 players per year and develop them over the course of their collegiate careers. This second model is what I think is attainable by Butler and would be helped significantly by a few key investments (practice facility, recruiting budget, coaching endowment). I hope to see tangible investment signs soon.
     
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  15. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

    Money:
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    Do explain.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  16. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I think you described Butler. There is no reason we can't continue to be a top 30 program by getting kids like Andrew Chrabascz, Cooper Neese, Kelan Dunham, Kamar Baldwin and a Matt Howard that aren't swayed by facilities and are solid students/basketball players. We will never compete with getting those kids that like the rhinestones and glitter nor should we even try. Personally I'm fine with schools like Syracuse, Louisville, North Carolina and Kentucky getting the top players. I think of those schools as basketball schools first and secondarily as universities of higher learning. Do we want that?
     
  17. Huntin'Dawg

    Huntin'Dawg Member

    Money:
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    During the first round of the NCAA tourney I listened to CH rail on Illinois for firing his bro, John Groce, and then 8 weeks later dump on BU and his recruits. Hypocrite / Scum bag. I hope we get them in the PK80 so we can rub his dick in the dirt.
     
  18. Dawgedd

    Dawgedd Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $1,188
    I think we are close to that second model. But, as of now, we don't get the occasional top 35 guy. I do believe there are some top 35 guys that are not swayed by the glitz and are appealed by aspects of Butler (Hinkle, LaVall). But they may hesitate at others (coaching turnover, lack of practice facility). LaVall really helps (excellent track record of developing guards). But having an endowment to retain LaVall when other schools call and adequate facilities to attract recruits will help make that next leap.
     
  19. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $5,491
    Unless there is something in the water over in Columbus Holtmann will continue to be just an average to slightly above average bench coach. Butler made Holtmann. Not the other way around. Right place at the right time. And couple that with the fact that he probably looked a whole lot better based on the situation and what immediately preceded him. I don't begrudge him for that. But I also think it's grossly misrepresented that he picked up the pieces and took the bull by the horns and coached Butler to success either. There was a lot in place. Sure, the records were pretty good, but how much better could they have been if Holtmann had been a better bench coach. I recall a whole lot of people complaining about Holtmann's game decisions following losses. And even overlooking some when we got the win. For me, the televised pre-game chats, the huddle look-ins, the halftime and post game interviews were all pretty revealing as well. Never saw or heard a coach spend an entire timeout talking about getting "deflections." Didn't mention double teaming or playing the passing lanes or fronting but, "...get some deflections." The entire freaking time out. Aren't deflections a by-product of the defensive basics? The Virginia NCAA game, second half, a definite winnable game, where Holtmann was clueless on making defensive adjustments to stop drives to the middle. Hell, but wasn't he was clueless his entire time here on how to shut down the middle. About as creative as he got was flipping the man to a 2 / 3 zone, and unfortunately, mostly at the wrong times. And how do you take an All-Big East Pre-Season First Team selection, and even before mid-season, destroy his confidence and bring him in off the bench the remainder of the season. Sure, Martin needed to be reigned in because it got to a point he was hurting the team, but Holtmann's handling of that situation sunk to a silly little pissing contest, with the best player on the team, and Martin was a whole lot less effective than he could and should have been. I could go on and on.

    I do give Holtmann kudos on the recruiting front. Again, based on what was previously done at Butler, Holtmann (and staff) did a great job. Not sure how much of that was Pedon and Schrage. Ohio State can only take 3 or 4 recruits a year, max. Plenty more talent out there. 2017 is over. It may or may not effect the 2018 class. Beyond that, who cares. I think Jordan is going to be a great recruiter / closer. In time, better than their predecessors.

    Holtmann was okay while here. Could have been worse. Could have been better. Bottom line, I'm glad he's gone because I never thought he was a great coach. The antithesis of Brad Stevens, who was a great coach and a horrible recruiter. I mentioned it earlier, if the over / under is five years on Holtmann at Ohio State, I'll take the under. He'll be on a much, much shorter leash at OSU. If the long term trade off was giving up Young to get L.J. in here and Holtmann out, I'll take it. It stings right now, losing Young, but we'll be much better off in the long term. I have all the confidence in the world that B.U. and Martin, in particular, are going to be really, really good next year. And beyond. Jordan is going to need some time to really get ramped up on the recruiting trail, but he'll be fine there as well. And, agree with those who say that Danko and Collier need to sink even more money into the BB program. We'll never be OSU, but we don't need to be either.
     
  20. gmoser1210

    gmoser1210 Active Member

    Money:
    $294
    With all of the recent upgrades to Hinkle (locker rooms, sports medicine and training facilities, video room, academic-related areas, etc.), what would need added to the west gym or in a dedicated practice facility to bring us up to par?
     
    Staxawax likes this.

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