Howard Washington - 2017 Point Guard (Syracuse)

Discussion in 'Recruiting Archive' started by Jared Grubbs, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    I wonder if we have difficulties in attracting point guards because we can't point to much success in developing them. Ditto for bigs. I know someone is going to point to Nored and Barlow and Smith. Nothing against those three but those examples wouldn't light a fire if I were a potential recruit.
     
  2. SchlabbaDawg

    SchlabbaDawg Active Member

    Money:
    $3,159
    Shelvin Mack?
     
  3. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,009
    I don't understand the pessimism here
     
  4. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    I dont look at Shelvin as being a point guard at Butler.
     
  5. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $20,118
    Agree he wasn't at Butler, but He's now a successful point guard in the NBA. That's worth something. That's what these kids ultimately want.




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  6. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    If I were a recruit I would be very interested in the programs success in developing players in the past that played my position whether it be a shooting guard, power forward, point guard etc. If I were a pg prospect I would like to know how point guards developed over the past 5-8 years. The only two point guards of note at Butler were Nored and Barlow. Similarly if I were 6' 9" + I would want to know who Butler developed at the 4 or 5 again over the past 5-8 years. The only one I can think of is Smith.

    Bottom line if I were a recruit I would want to know how are you going to help me get better and tell me your successes in doing so.
     
  7. johnhardingftw

    johnhardingftw Member

    Money:
    $6,467
    Breaking: 50 year old man claims to know what 17 year olds want, and thinks all those 2 & 3 star players we've gotten over the past 10+ years were naturally talented enough to sustain a top 25 program, and weren't developed. Even though this is a totally different staff.

    SMDH. Insane Dawg lives up to his handle yet again.

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  8. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,176
    Of course player development is a key recruiting tool. You don't think the coaches tell these kids that they are going to elevate their games, along with playing with other really good players?

    The minimal post play this past season was courtesy of Chrabs. Only player who, once and a while, played with his back to the basket. Toward the end of the season he started playing with a little more authority around the paint, at times. Hopefully he will play with that enthusiasm full-time next season. We've had Wideman for two years. Probably the strongest player on the team. I don't recall even one simple drop step by him with his back to the basket. He has no post up game. None. And that's after two years. That's the reason for the pessimism. Plus, where was any resemblance of inside-out game through the post? With shooters like Dunham and Martin on the perimeter, why didn't we wear that out first, in lieu of such a reliance on hero ball?

    I'm sure our BB budget was increased with our entry into the Big East. Why not send these some of these kids to summer skills camps? I believe those are permitted, correct? Wouldn't hurt. Probably wouldn't hurt to send some of the staff to some coaching clinics either. I actually give Holtman a pass to a degree. First year was a mess. Second year had upperclass players recruited by others, and had the uniqueness of a team lead by the unconventional Jones. But I'm looking for a lot out of him next season. And from the players he is coaching and developing now that he has had them for a while.
     
  9. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    I don't believe this program has been successful recruiting or developing point guards and bigs. The wings have carried the program. Maybe john can give me specifics on where we have been successful in those two areas since say 2007.
     
  10. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,009
    So Ron Nored, Shelvin Mack (Yes, he counts as Jared mentioned), Matt Howard, Andrew Smith, Alex Barlow, Kameron Woods etc. just don't exist to you?
     
  11. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $9,627
    Shawn Van Zant also improved drastically while he was at Butler.
     
  12. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    No Mack was not a pg in college. If you are a pg recruit are you wowed by Barlow and Nored? Good if you are. I was not impressed with Smith's development. He could have been much more dominant and effective. Woods was a rebounder and defender- never developed offensive skills or became stronger. I'll give you Howard but would say he was more responsible for his development than the ACs. Give me more etc over the past eight years. You mentioned five over eight years. All I'm saying is we better develop more players at a faster rate than we have if we plan to be at the top of the BE. Nothing so far tells me we can.

    Nova is doing it. X is doing it. Oklahoma is doing it. Wichita State is doing it.
     
  13. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097

    As a pg or big?
     
  14. johnhardingftw

    johnhardingftw Member

    Money:
    $6,467
    Butler has never run an offense with a true PG. Both are responsible for running the offense interchangeably. We don't have or recruit traditional bigs either. These aren't 4 & 5 star players that Nova & X get. They're flawed when they arrive, & improve enough to be critical pieces on the team & eventually have careers playing ball. Greater than the sum of the parts & all that.

    This discussion is weird.

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  15. shoeevv

    shoeevv Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $1,016
    The " We aren't developing bigs well " argument is bogus. The Dawgs had a 6' 7 and 1/8 center, a 6' 6 and 1/4 power 4, and a 6' 6 small. We backed them up with a 6' 5 and 3/4 reserve. We are playing in the BIG EAST, we would have been small in DIII. What are you thinking the staff should have been better at " developing "?
     
  16. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    BU has never run an offense with a true pg because they 1. haven't been able to recruit pg and 2. they haven't been able to develop pg. Thus you are in agreement. And again you agree we haven't recruited traditional bigs. Maybe just maybe we have trouble recruiting bigs and pg because we haven't been good at developing either position. If you are satisfied with the sum of the parts then great and one very good player coming out every year or so then great. I'm not.
     
  17. johnhardingftw

    johnhardingftw Member

    Money:
    $6,467
    I knew you were gonna go there. You'd think after 20 years of watching Butler mostly kick ass, people would take that as evidence of a system not requiring a true PG or true C, not evidence of a lack of coaching talent.

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  18. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    How about the pg position over the past say eight years and what would you see if you were a really good pg recruit? Would you say wow they are really good at developing pg and I want to be a part of an offense that doesn't use a pg? We have a big coming in and one on the bench. Do we have an AC that has ever played that position? Do you really really believe we can coach them up? I have my concerns.
     
  19. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,097
    Yes
     
  20. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $10,009
    Do you have anything to back this statement? If not, there's no point in arguing this because you obviously are just going to tack any improvement up to the player while at the same time blaming the coaching staff if players don't improve. So players are rewarded as doing it all when they do improve, but are blameless if they don't?
     

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