LaVall’s Last Season

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by MadDawg2020, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. Woof

    Woof Well-Known Member

    It wouldn’t have mattered who we recruited since the staff doesn’t have a clue on how to use or develop talent. Any player on our roster will be stunted in their progression under the current coaches.
    DawgPoundMac and jkcdawgs like this.
  2. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    No doubt you are right. It’s all on the coaches to develop the players - not on the players themselves. Kind of like Laravia who only developed because of his coaches even though he wasn't highly recruited or like all the other 2 and 3 stars that only developed because of their coaches or the five stars that never made it because their coaches failed.
  3. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Specifically what would you do to develop these players that is not being done now? Seriously what would you do differently than what the current staff is doing? Or looked at another way- what aren’t they doing and how do you know that?
  4. BigHoss

    BigHoss Well-Known Member

    Serious question - are you on the Athletic Department staff? The time and effort you go through to defend everything about this coaching regime is mind blowing - I’d even say it’s impressive. I disagree with just about everything you say, but my god I have to admire your relentless defense of the Coaching Staff. I hope to find a woman someday who is as ride or die for me, as you are for LaVall Jordan.
  5. Woof

    Woof Well-Known Member

    To be fair to you, I can’t demonstrably say what is or isn’t being done from a player development standpoint specifically. However, I only need to use my eyes to identify that 1) most of our players are no different from when they walked into Hinkle the first time and 2) they’re not put into positions to succeed during games. So whatever the staff is attempting to do clearly isn’t working.

    From a player development perspective, I think of guys like Howard, Veasley, Smith, Barlow, etc. who were all ranked lower than most our current recruits, yet managed to improve dramatically in most aspects of their game.

    That didn’t happen with every player, but there are numerous examples of Lickliter, Stevens, and Holtmann coached players who all got better and, or at the very least, we’re put in positions to succeed. We could point to similar examples on other Big East teams. I can think of very few players under Lavall who actually got better under his tenure.
    jkcdawgs likes this.
  6. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member



    Were the opinions sh*t then? Or opinions sh*t now? Or more likely both?[/QUOTE]

    If you're going to do your elitist holier than thou shiite and quote me (I should be so, so honored) at least get the player right. Those last three were regarding Tater Tot, not Harris.

    I will say, you have this weird obsession of going way back to find quotes. I guess that's cool? I don't know, I'm not as good as you from the way you talk to people.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
  7. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    There appears to be quite the divide between those that believe LJ should be fired and those that believe he should not— at least not yet. Full disclosure I think he should go but don’t believe that it will happen until after the 22-23 season due to Collier. There will always be excuses (injuries, Covid, suspensions, expulsions) but LJ came in with one of the most experienced teams in the country. We even bring in transfers and they dramatically underperform here compared to at their old school. At some point the excuses run out and for me this season is it barring some remarkable 2011-esque turnaround. I’ve been a pretty staunch defender of him up until this season because of all the circumstances.

    For those who still defend him and the staff. What kind of record/performance on the court would warrant a change on the bench? How many “down” years does it take? Does recruiting success play into it?

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
    willisbrown likes this.
  8. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Doyle pretty much a Woke-in wanna be terrible "journalist" but even he got that one right. LaVall never even looked that way.
  9. butlerguy03

    butlerguy03 Well-Known Member

    He never claims to be a journalist. He’s a columnist. Big difference.
  10. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Not directed at anyone specific but to be clear. I don’t care whether Jordan stays or leaves after this year. I don’t know the guy, have never seen a practice nor ever talked to him. Actually I never knew he was a basketball coach until some on here who now wants him fired touted him to succeed Brad Stevens. I don’t know if he is a good coach or not. He did fine his first three years. I too want to win every game and to be the next blue blood. But don’t expect either to happen no matter who is the coach. I don’t ever expect to be in the final four ever again.

    I looked back at the freshmen and sophomores LJ inherited when he became HC after Holtmann

    Those who didn’t develop under Jordan recruited by Holtmann

    Henry Baddley. Maybe a two or three star
    Jerald Gillens- Butler averaging 6.5 points and 1.9 rebounds at Elon
    Christian David. 4 star Had bad knees in HS and at Butler
    Joey Brunk 4 star been a journeyman

    Those who did develop under Jordan recruited by Holtmann.

    Sean McDermott
    Aaron Thompson
    Kamar Baldwin

    I can think of a lot of players that Brad, Lickliter and Holtmann recruited that bombed out.

    As for how we have been playing this year no one was more discouraged or negative than I was in LV. We stunk up the place. I knew then the season was pretty much over. My wife had to elbow me a couple of times for yelling at Jordan to take Golden out. He was that bad. Since then Golden has been playing incredibly well and yes he is far better than when he was a freshman as is AT. Nze is a lot better than when he transferred in. So yes those three players have improved a lot. Player improvement is not solely up to the coach. I think we have one other recruit that came in who has had significant knee problems over the past four years who hasn’t improved much and three transfers who have been here for less than two years. Unless I’m wrong the other 7-8 are freshmen or part way through their sophomore season. Jordan has had three or four of his recruits leave for other universities after their freshmen years. During the 4-5 years Jordan has been a HC there have been probably 6000 transfers in college basketball. So he isn’t the only one that has had outbound transfers.

    I’m not into constantly *****ing, moaning and saying crazy stuff just to vent and be a part of the *****ing club. Yes I spend a lot of time analyzing each game by looking at stats and watching re plays because 1) I enjoy it and 2) I want to figure out what worked and what didn’t. What I do write on here is meant for those that are on the same page as me. I wrote recently that it would be nice to have two forums- one for those who enjoy analytics and analyzing and studying the games and a second one for those who just want to vent their spleens. Lastly if what people write is too long for you to read then by all means get a graphic novel. If you disagree with me by all means please ignore me as more than likely I’m ignoring you.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
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  11. Shane Davis

    Shane Davis Well-Known Member

    I’ve defended LaVall off and on, mostly from the end of last year right up to the Maui game against Texas A&M, since then it’s been hard to see anything substantial to believe that he is the long term solution for Butler. I still like the guy - His attitude is infectious, he says all the right things, and my understanding is the players like playing for him. He tried to cultivate this mindeset of “Gritty, not pretty,” which sounds fine until you notice that all the grittiness lacks any sense of fundamentals half the time. It’s one thing to grind it out to victory, but when your team isn’t making anyone work hard to defend you, it defeats the purpose. Butler doesn’t give anyone fits anymore, just their fans.

    I’m still not convinced there’s anyone out there on the radar that would be that much better, but there’s gotta be something better than what we’re seeing right now. Every time a Butler coach leaves, you usually hear from a handful of players saying they want someone that will maintain the culture, so right now that’s only thing I care about at this point, whether in the family or not.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    Insane Dawg, jal8908 and BoyGeoff like this.
  12. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Shane Davis

    I concur with what you wrote. I thought last year was a total loss for the entire program and through no ones fault. No coach or program could have handled that many injuries, covid and an accused rape successfully.

    Every fifth year senior wanted to come back and play for Jordan when they could have transferred. Those five wanted one more shot at it together and told Jordan that was what they wanted. There are few coaches that would say no I don’t want any of you to come back or I’ll take you and you and you but not you two. You two have to leave. I couldn’t do it but maybe some of you would have no problem doing that.

    I can’t imagine during last year’s horrible injury situation that he anticipated one of his prized recruits would be charged with rape. None of us know what impact that had on the players and the program. How do you keep everyone silent , positive and focused and let the law and administration take care of it? Did that lead to Coles leaving or was he homesick or didn’t like winters? TCU was probably in his two top choices as a recruit. Hated to see him go. Unless he told me why he left I’m not going to jump to any conclusions. As for Khalif Battle. Have no idea why he quit in the middle of a season. Made no sense. Maybe it was grades, attitude, home sickness or maybe it was Jordan.

    As for college basketball in general- it’s on the verge of being a complete cluster **** with the ease of transferring and NIL. You know there are coaches out there that will be poaching and offering insane amounts of money. College football already has over 3,000 players in the transfer portal. Eastern Michigan which is a mid - major football school just offered Oklahoma’s star QB $1,000,000 to transfer. Texas is going to pay every offensive lineman, starters and reserves, $50,000 a year. Get ready it could get really wild. Can small private schools like Butler have any chance recruiting kids and how much can they pay?
  13. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member


    It's hard to read, but it's accurate. It was written before they stomped us on our home court.
  14. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    To your question yes it was a reason why Coles left, maybe not 100%, but it definitely was a factor in his decision

    Sent from my SM-G986U using Butler Hoops mobile app
  15. TheDawgDub95

    TheDawgDub95 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    I guess he should have said that we *would* have been in the tournament in year 3, but it is hard to dispute anything else that was written and also hard to see it getting better. There was a lot of hard to watch basketball in years 1 - 3, as well. We just happened to have a guy in KB that was able to work magic to keep us from falling into the abyss those years.

    Sent from my SM-G977U using Butler Hoops mobile app
    BoyGeoff likes this.
  16. znelson15

    znelson15 Well-Known Member



    Were the opinions sh*t then? Or opinions sh*t now? Or more likely both?[/QUOTE]

    Dang I am just stoked you used one of my posts on Groce, I will eat crow for sure on what I said!!!

    Either way nice work with the research on these posts about players.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
    2xDawg likes this.
  17. SCbulldogsfan4life

    SCbulldogsfan4life Well-Known Member

    Man I don't know what to say. I usually find myself defending Lavall more often than not, but I really understand where a lot of you are coming from.

    I've felt since day 1 that I didn't like the offensive system he has run, some of the recruits he has brought in, the overemphasis on hero ball, and the fact that we lose the 50-50 balls more often than we used to.

    That all being said, I would argue we have had enough overall success throughout LJs tenure to where it would be difficult for Collier to let him go after this season. I think he at least gets 1 more year to show what he can do with these underclassmen and to see if he can bring in some solid transfers.

    If there is improvement next year, expect a contract extension. If not, I could see him being let go. If we keep tanking and changes need made, I won't complain, but this year and next I'll be rooting for his and the teams success, and I hope you'll do the same.
    znelson15, tlp63, Staxawax and 5 others like this.
  18. knobcreekfan

    knobcreekfan Well-Known Member

    When making decisions to divest a business, drop a product line or fire an employee; you should always ask 1) what is not working? 2) why? and 3) is it fixable or not? If the issue is fixable, it is almost always better, faster, cheaper to fix it. Therefore, I am less concerned with the W/L record as I am with those answers. Thank you to those that take a reasoned approach to answering those questions.
    2xDawg, ButlerProf and NCJon like this.
  19. ButlerFan89

    ButlerFan89 Active Member

    So what’s your answer to these questions?

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  20. halftime_floor_sweeper

    halftime_floor_sweeper Well-Known Member

    Okay except in this situation Jordan is the division head and needs to be the one both asking and answering "those questions". If he isn't doing that and can't fix the issues you get rid of him.
    Carmel Caramels and willisbrown like this.

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