LaVall’s Last Season

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by MadDawg2020, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. BU Fan in Illinois

    BU Fan in Illinois Active Member

    Money:
    $358
    When you look at the Butler coaching tree only LaVall, Holtman, and Harlan 'Pat' Page were a head basketball coach at the College level prior to coaching at Butler. Since Hinkle, all coaches except for Holtman and Sexson had ties to Butler either as a player or assistant coach. So for decades the University and Athletic Department have rarely gone outside of the Butler family for its next coach. I think the time has come to move away from the Butler family for our next coach.
     
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  2. BUcheer

    BUcheer Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $7,560
    Ha-yes—you’re delusional:)
     
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  3. Southside Dawg

    Southside Dawg Member

    Money:
    $162
    Has anyone even considered Steve Alford, might be able to bring in some top recruits. At least he would be able to teach these kids how to shoot, make free throws and execute fundmentals
     
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  4. bmradio99

    bmradio99 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $5,080
    Holt was an assistant for a year under Brandon Miller, so I don't know if I'd count him as being without Butler ties. It's VERY in the family.

    A looser connection is fine. (Micah Shrewsberry, for example, has always been a favorite. Not an alum, not a "Butler guy," but he gets it. I think he'll do as well as the ceiling at PSU will let him.) But agree, they have to at least look at branching out from the alumni tree.

    I know that Butler doesn't have the deepest pockets, but they're deep enough to look. The "connection" is generally useful in selling the intangibles of the job. For the most part, people seem to like working at Butler. Rare is the case where someone leaves because of a toxic work environment or apathy. It's almost always money...and that's fine. It's a job!

    Someone with closer ties to athletics: does this happen with other Butler sports? I know the WBB coach was a Butler assistant. The notable "outside the family" one I can think of is Paul Snape, the men's soccer coach. From the admittedly little I know about college soccer...that's seemed like a pretty solid hire, right? I feel like that program has been elevated under his tenure.
     
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  5. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,149
    You guys realize the reason we stay in the Butler family for coaching is not so much because of tradition, but because If they succeed our only hope at keeping them when someone offers to double their salary is that they have sentimental ties to Butler, right?


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  6. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,149
    Not to pick on you but this is one of the biggest problems with this board (and fans in general).

    People have no idea the complexities of what they’re watching. Lavall has obviously been bad but to think someone who hasn’t coached at a d1 level can do better is INSANE. (I personally think you are a good poster so this is in now way an attack on you)

    We have many people on this board not understanding simple things like why AT leaves his feet at the rim to make passes (and it’s okay to not understand!!), we have people talking about “defensive sets”etc.

    We don’t need to be experts to recognize what we’re seeing is bad. But I don’t think anyone on this board would even recognize a conversation about the nuances and intricacies of what we do or our opponents do as being in English. It really is that far out of our sphere of understanding.




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  7. The Peppers Drunk Limo

    The Peppers Drunk Limo Active Member

    Money:
    $337
    I generally agree with the tone of this thread, but I want to play devil's advocate for a minute, and not just for the sake of doing it - I personally buy some of this.

    1. There are some good names on this list, but we have to remember that Vall had a great pedigree coming into BU, too. The biggest difference between him and said names is that they've demonstrated sustained success as head coaches, just for lower-profile programs. That's a significant difference, and maybe there's a preference for getting someone who's proven himself in the top job instead of someone who's an up-and-coming assistant. That's a fair (and probably safe, responsible) preference. But it's not like Vall making a name for himself as an assistant to John Beilein and taking over a decent-to-solid high-major program (which is what Butler is) is that many ZIP codes over from, say, Hubert Davis getting promoted to take over for Roy or John Scheyer being promoted to take over for Coach K. I think we're undervaluing Vall's pedigree and where his star was pointed a bit. That's important to put into context what great things we think about the next guy, should there be one.

    2. Whether or not we like it (and this is not a slight to any individual player on the team), the cupboard is bare. Other people in various threads have talked about player development at BU the last four years, and there's no doubt that it's troubling, but the team has (1) struck out with some pivotal recruits and (2) partly as a result of that and of bad luck (COVID stunting team development, injuries) been forced to roll with rosters of mismatched pieces. Butler has a non-scoring point guard who nevertheless is an above-average player and would fit a lot of rosters - ones with scoring threats at all, obviously - quite nicely. Maybe some of it is Vall's fault and some of it isn't that Butler lacks those threats. Johnson is gone, Battle and Brunk and Coles transferred, Nze and Tate and Hodges are hurt and Hodges has played only nine games total with the team, anyway. We can be fair here - that's a rare combination of circumstances and incredibly difficult to overcome. It's not just excuse-making.

    3. Recency bias is clouding our judgment not just because of last season but because of the cancelled tourney in 2020. Programs such as Butler are acutely hurt by a wonky happening such as pandemic preventing a tournament appearance. Deep-pocketed programs that reload quickly on recruiting can just shrug their shoulders and be back in the top 25 the next season. Butler can't. Butler ebbs and flows, and the underwhelming Big East season in 2020 notwithstanding, the 2020 tournament was supposed to be one of those 3-or-so-year peaks we see with Butler programs (4-/5-seed, enough weapons to threaten a deep run).

    I can and probably do take the opposite side to lots of this. I still have nightmares about almost losing to Portland State a few years ago. But it's not because of what the past tells us, but instead where the program is heading. Butler just hasn't become the burgeoning recruiting power that we thought Vall could turn it into, and he's not a seeming miracle-worker with the pieces he has like two of his predecessors (a tall order). The one place where we could stand to reserve judgment is in thinking about next season's roster (assuming, fingers crossed, no transfers of key cogs), because they easily could have a better time of meshing together and with what Vall is trying to do. I think lots of us have variously complemented some of the things the freshmen and sophomores have showed in bits and pieces this year. They obviously need more time. The Butlers of the world need every minute of that time.
     
  8. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $971
    Next year’s roster is exactly the same as this years roster except less people, and 1 sub 300 recruit. So I think it’s safe to say we can judge next year pretty well on what we see this year (better judgement can occur at the end of season, but judgement nonetheless)


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  9. IrishDawghouse

    IrishDawghouse Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $453
    That’s one of the names I’ve been thinking as well when making a mental list of intriguing names.

    If we decided to go outside of the Butler circle, I think Darian Devries from Drake should be one of the first calls made


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    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  10. iluvsnow

    iluvsnow Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $884
    Nope...no Alford.
     
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  11. IrishDawghouse

    IrishDawghouse Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $453
    How bout Slick Rick Pitino then? ;)


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  12. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $13,383
    That would be amazing.

    Just throw some money at Dakich, he knows everything about basketball, right? He's local and could have his players on his Outkick show. It's really called "Don't at me"...lame dude. Very lame.
     
  13. DawgPoundMac

    DawgPoundMac Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $382
    I’m personally not for Alford due to the trends of his teams to start strong with a lot of promise and then crash late season or in the tourney. It wouldn’t be my last choice, but not my first either. Definitely an interesting thought though.


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  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,149
    If we want to hire a mediocre coach we could just look at Lavall Jordan. He’d be cheaper.


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  15. Shane Davis

    Shane Davis Active Member

    Money:
    $373
    If Butler seriously wants to look outside the family tree for candidates then so be it, but I personally don’t think Alford would be the answer. Nothing against him, but I would kinda describe him as fool’s gold - A big name that sounds nice, but in the long term won’t give you the results you were expecting. Yeah he may bring in the recruits, but if you think we’re lacking in fundamentals now, it likely wouldn’t be much better with him on the sidelines, and you might as well say goodbye to defense while you’re at it.
     
  16. ButlerBoyz

    ButlerBoyz Member

    Money:
    $149
    I think people look at Alford as this coaching talent that's ready to hit it's peak but it never comes. Alford's teams can put up points but my goodness they couldn't guard a casket. Shrewsberry was the man and it's a shame timing didn't work out. Let's hire Terry Johnson this time and have him instill the defense. Build a staff around TJ that puts him in the best position to succeed. Hire an Assistant that runs the offense and get some recruiters to finish up the staff.
     
  17. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $17,289
    Shrews’ kid just committed to PSU today. So that’s a bonus. Would be nice if Lavall had a D1-caliber kid
     
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  18. Title

    Title Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $416
    And there’s approximately 0% chance there won’t be 1 or 2 transfers from players you’d like to keep, especially those that are from far away.
     
  19. Shane Davis

    Shane Davis Active Member

    Money:
    $373

    I think it’s a given that there we be at least one to several defections from the roster if LaVall does get let go, and that stinks but it’s just the way it works. The question to ask ourselves is this - How many years could it set the program back if any one left right now? There’s some talent on this team and I don’t wish for any of them to leave, but half the rotation is graduating after this year anyway. So, if we were to lose anyone from Taylor, Harris, Lukosius, Thomas and Hughes, does that set us back 1 year/3 years/5 years?

    If we don’t think that the core we have is a strong enough foundation to correct the course for the future, then the impact from a fallout doesn’t really matter that much. You could argue just rip the bandage off now before it’s too late to change course.
     
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  20. ap234

    ap234 Active Member

    Money:
    $480
    I wasn’t being completely serious. I do know however what goes into college basketball and have spent countless hours in college and high school practices. at games, and coaching at multiple levels. I’m not here to give my resume but I do know what I’m watching when I see it and what LaVall has been doing is not great at any level and it’s been a problem for his entire tenure.
     
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