LaVall Jordan

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ButlerFan89, Nov 18, 2021.

  1. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,101
    I think player development is a strength.

    Agreed everywhere else.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  2. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,207
    Who’s gotten markedly better?
     
    ButlerFan89 likes this.
  3. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,101
    Sean McDermott, Kelan Martin, Kamar Baldwin, Bryce Golden, Bryce Nze-could maybe throw Jordan Tucker in there too.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  4. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,207
    Kelan and Sean had half an offseason with the current staff and were coming off good junior years. I’m not sure it makes sense to attribute much “player development” to the current regime.

    Golden made a nice jump from freshman to sophomore year (but this is normal) and has - at best - remained the same level since.

    I’m struggling to find objective measures indicating Nze was/has been better in the one season+ since his first season (19-20). Offensive efficiency? Worse (FT%? Worse. 2 point percentage? Much worse). Rebounding rates? Virtually unchanged. Block rate? Worse. Defensive rating? Worse. Box plus minus? Much worse. Win shares? Worse. Turnover rate? Hey that’s gotten better.

    Tucker - at what? In his two seasons here, his offensive efficiency didn’t change (FT% got slightly worse. 3PT% got slightly worse (lower volume too!)). Rebounding rate got worse. Maybe he was *slightly* less lost on defense?
     
    PSUButlerFan and ButlerFan89 like this.
  5. Danville Bulldog

    Danville Bulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $1,969
    should read

    Golden made a nice jump from freshman to sophomore year (but this is normal) and has - at best - become worse.
     
  6. ButlerFan89

    ButlerFan89 Member

    Money:
    $100
    I could list a lot of holes in that statement, but just one example… AT’s poor FT shooting after 5 years of “development.”


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    willisbrown likes this.
  7. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $13,331
    A 6'2 guard that is rather tough and likes contact/going at the rim should maybe put some thought/effort into getting better at the stripe. But...nope.
     
    znelson15 and BoyGeoff like this.
  8. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,101
    Some guys are just bad shooters. No one is saying Phil Jackson was a bad coach because Shaq couldn’t hit free throws.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  9. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,101
    Sean was coming off his freshman year when Lavall took over. He improved *dramatically* since lavall became coach to his senior year.


    Kelan may have had half an offseason but that doesn’t mean he didn’t make vast improvements when Lavall became coach.

    Golden hasn’t improved much since his sophomore year but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t improved significantly since he got here. Has anyone watched him play and thought he had a lot of potential that just was untapped?

    Your counter on Tucker is perfectly fair-I agree with you there.

    Nze-improved by 3 ppg, 2 rpg and one apg while being the best player. That’s hard and not to be discounted. Furthermore he’s completely expanded his game. He is a much better outside shooter and ball handler now.
     
  10. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $955
    Sean graduated with Kamar. Both had 2 seasons with LJ. They definitely improved.

    Golden is averaging 4ppg as a senior, but he did look good in the 5 games last year /s

    NZE was coming alive the last half of the season and it felt like he had to be playing for us to have any chance of winning down the stretch. He’s turned into a better player than I thought

    Outside of Sean and KB, I think you’re right though. I expect players to mature, but I wouldn’t say their development was anything better than what they would have gotten from coaches at Ball State.

    I mean just look at JMM. Yes he held his own against MSU the other day but let’s be real— it’s not that he played great, it’s that he didn’t get taken advantage of on the post that got everyone so impressed with him. Offensive liability, and defensively net 0 in that game, which could actually be argued since he fouled out in 11 minutes. He’s a junior.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2021
  11. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,207
    Yeah, oops, I got mixed up on Sean’s tenure. Long week. He got a lot better and much of it was with this staff. I think that’s the only valid example here, though, and given that, I’m hesitant to confidently attribute it to this staff.
     
    znelson15 likes this.
  12. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $8,101
    If we spin this around I think we identify the problem much better. Who *hasnt* progressed? Tucker, Mulloy, David certainly are examples-but we see SO MANY guys who have left early. I think that’s the bigger problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  13. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,207
    That’s not the question. The question is who hasn’t progressed *at a rate beyond what you’d expect from just being another year older and playing more basketball.*

    I’d argue that the answer is literally everyone except Sean. This answer alone is enough to wonder about going in a different direction.

    Player development (and retention too) has been below average, and that’s the nicest way to put it. The apparent lack of off-season improvement has never been as clear and in your face as it is this year because there are so many returnees.

    Butler can’t afford below average player inter-season player development. (There are less than five programs who can.)
     
    bubby, UDDawg, bmradio99 and 3 others like this.
  14. bmradio99

    bmradio99 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $5,072
    My biggest gripe remains the lack of identity, outside of "they play a really slow pace."
     
  15. Cranjis McBasketball

    Cranjis McBasketball Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $955
    Since we are on the topic of development and post players in particular. How do we even field a competitive team next year?

    1) Tate, Lukosius
    2) Harris, Thomas
    3) Taylor
    4) Wilmoth, Hughes
    5) Golden(?) JMM, Turnbull

    Assuming Wilmoth can blossom into a Groce, and Nze/Hodges is currently out for the foreseeable future, next season looks like it will be a lot like this one. Obviously it’s early and we have a whole season to develop (or not) the returnees but how many games does that roster win us? I know we will be hitting the transfer pool hard but so will everyone else. We still won’t have a post presence which will continue the offensive heroball bullshit that we’ve seen the last several years because we can’t space the floor.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  16. Danville Bulldog

    Danville Bulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $1,969
    :(
     
  17. znelson15

    znelson15 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,428
    Just wrote about this on another thread

    Shaka already has created an identity for his team and it’s his first year!!!!!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  18. znelson15

    znelson15 Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $2,428
    I am ready to ride the ship with these guys even if it does sink!!!!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
    2xDawg likes this.
  19. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $13,331
    They're banking on the transfer portal next season and that's a risky play. Obviously the 2022 class of one is unacceptable but they're pushing their chips in on transfers...end of story.

    They may hit on one....maybe by God's grace two. But that's a huge if. Next year is going to be rough. I mean there literally isn't much hope right now. Literally zero.

    Stranger things have happened but what thing can we point to and say "the future looks bright"?? Answer...nada. 2021 has two guys that aren't gonna be ready for awhile, 2022 has a one man project. This dude is tanking the hell out of this program.
     
    Cranjis McBasketball likes this.
  20. SCbulldogsfan4life

    SCbulldogsfan4life Member

    Money:
    $63
    Thats true. Never thought about Barry's role in this. Holtman was the last good coach they had and his success was more of an accident because of Brandon. But it's important to note that very few people were upset about Brandon and Lavall's hirings, so you can't put too much blame on Barry. He did his best to keep hirings in-house. Think Nored would want to come coach lol?
     

Share This Page