Miller Kopp - 2018 Small Forward (Northwestern)

Discussion in 'Recruiting Archive' started by Jared Grubbs, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Alcohol101

    Alcohol101 Active Member

    I get what you were saying. It makes complete sense and is rational. I also agree with you 100%.

    I was basically looking for a vehicle to call him an idiot. It is very enjoyable.
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  2. fdr

    fdr Well-Known Member

    Pretty sure he was mocking Title, like everyone else.
  3. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

    Udeze might help replace Wideman. Martin's scoring I think will have to be replaced (at least in part) with a transfer. Someone may blow up (Christian David perhaps) this year, but I think there will definitely be scoring opportunities for someone, whether they are on the team already or not after this season. As for waiting for someone to blow up and grab them, pretty much every school in the NCAA will have a scholarship to hand out to someone exactly like that in the spring, so it's going to be very difficult, even if the year does go well to bank on getting someone like that.
  4. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

    I'm not near as bummed about this one as I was Aaron Henry. Kopp is a high major player, but I don't think he is a game changer or anything. Butler will find a suitable wing.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
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  5. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    I'm less upset about losing Kopp than I am about what it's a reminder of: Butler struggles so g*ddamn much to recruit to its level. I know LaVall hasn't had much time, and we've got to see how the 2019 class to really evaluate him as a recruiter (though it's not like he was starting new relationships with Henry or Kopp; he'd been on them a while). But I'm talking more about Butler as a school/program. The last staff got some momentum going but even its best class was only around par for the Big East - and we lost its best player before he got to campus.

    It's just frustrating.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  6. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    I feel your frustration but to reiterate what I said in another post it is hard to expect kids to pick Butler when we have so much instability with the HC. With danger of pissing off the Stevens and Holtmann fans but at some point loyalty will kick in. Hopefully that will be with LJ.

    I would bet Collier is tired of it as well.
  7. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

    I feel LaVall will be a different breed of cat. Stevens turned several opportunities both college and pro before taking the Celtics offer and everyone of us knows you
    do not turn down the Celtics. Boltmann used Butler as a stepping stone pure and simple. Butler stepped up at the end of every season and it still wasn't enough.
  8. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Hard to criticize MK's choice all things considered, I do think his game could of have excelled at BU. Disappointing but time to move forward...
  9. fdr

    fdr Well-Known Member

    As much as I love and defend Butler, maybe it is time to start asking questions and pointing some fingers. Just so we are clear, I'm an alumnus and season ticket holder and love our basketball culture. But, that being said, why do we struggle so much to sign highly rated recruits? I've used any number of excuses in the past -- facilities, school/campus size, location, city, academic standards, etc. However, our issues/barriers are not unique and there are plenty of programs that must navigate the very same challenges (in some combination) and still pull in better recruits. As much as it pains me to say this, maybe we should really start looking at Xavier's approach. By no means do I want us to emulate them completely, but perhaps we could learn a thing or two. And I don't want to hear that we recruit higher caliber "people," because there are plenty of elite players that are also good kids and those are the recruits we have traditionally failed to sign.

    This isn't directed at LaVall Jordan or Miller Kopp. Just something I've been thinking about for a while.
  10. Mr X

    Mr X Super Moderator

    The reasons you listed have definitely played a role in Butler's struggles but the biggest reason which you left out is coaching continuity. Being in Horizon League was probably Butler's biggest problem post Final Four runs but ever since Butler's moved on from Horizon League we haven't had a coach whose lasted long enough to go through a full recruiting cycle.

    This is been discussed ad nauseam but if Brad stayed in 2014 we get Bluiett and Macura. If Holtmann stays this year, we would have gotten Muhammad and had a really good shot to land some combination of Watson, Weaver, or Bingham. Hell even B Mill was in good shape with Kyle Guy and CJ Walker.

    Is Butler ever going to be school pulling in NBA lotto picks like Trey Lyles or Jaren Jackson? Probably not but there's also no reason Butler shouldn't be able to land the Miller Kopp's of the world on a regular basis but it's going to require some longevity from a coaching staff. So better question is why do people treat Butler as a stepping stone job and what can Butler do to prevent that trend from happening again in the future when a coach does well.
  11. I like turtles

    I like turtles Active Member

    Let me first say that although I am a die hard fan, I never went to Butler. My father did back in the day and got me watching around 2001 when I was about 13. My age and the success of the team made it an easy sell and one that I am grateful for as I love being a fan. But I still am a bit of an outsider which I believe helps me maintain an objective perceptive of a few things.

    With that said, here is my "outsider's" take on why recruits say no too often, in order of importance:

    1. Coaching carousel: Butler administration has made a decision since Barry Collier days that they will not compete with state schools in the salary department. Part of that is out of necessity - Butler is not awash in cash and sees paying the market rate for our coaches as a short sighted investment. I won't comment on whether they are right or wrong as I don't care enough to look into the finer details. Needless to say, we are a victim of our own success and our coaching turnover has undoubtedly turned off recruits.

    2. Culture: far as I can tell, the culture within the locker room is an asset and high profile alums rep the school well. Campus culture, on the other hand, is a negative as far as I can tell. I say this as objectively as I can - the student body is disappointing. There are plenty of reasons for my opinion, but ill refrain from listing them as I don't want to seem like an asshole.

    3. Location: this bleeds a bit into culture but outside of Hinkle, I don't see the appeal. I think indy is great as a sports town. But that's about it.

    4. Facilities: pretty mediocre. Not much else to say.

    5. Academics: this is the spot that I think I'll get the most hate. But I think that butlers academic prestige is non existent outside of broad ripple. People who often cite this as a selling point are mistaken in my opinion. On a national scale, Butler is known as a basketball school. That's it.
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  12. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

    1. If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

    2. Thank God next year the NCAA gets rid of "preseason pick" as one of the tourney selection criteria. Lucky Butler.
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  13. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Cooling off and thinking about it a bit, I guess I'm pretty persuaded that (1) is probably the best explanation. Three of the five Big East classes we've had have been blown up by untimely coaching changes. It's remarkable when you say it out loud, and in that light you could argue it's sort of amazing it hasn't been worse than it's been. That's not to say the 2016 and 2017 classes (pre-Holt departure) (the only two classes that weren't strongly affected by coaching turmoil) were outstanding, but they had top 150 players and were steps up, and it looked like 2018 was only going to be better.

    I think (4) is also a huge problem, but it's been discussed ad nauseum so there's no sense diving back into it right now.

    I'm unpersuaded by (2) and (5). I spent several years at another school after graduating Butler, one that many would argue is the best university in the world, so I have at least some non-Butler comparison point. 1) The culture was generally terrible compared to Butler's (the students generally hated themselves and were about 10% as active on campus as at Butler's students). Butler students are incredibly active on campus and are about the happiest bunch of people you'll ever be around; and 2) the people I met in grad school generally knew of Butler and thought of it as a good university, similar to a Creighton or Villanova, so your comment there simply isn't true. Butler is not a Yale or Harvard, and it's not Northwestern or Notre Dame either. I don't think most honest BU grads would argue otherwise. But its academics can be a positive vis a vis most of the schools it competes with for recruits.

    I think (3) is totally irrelevant. A) I don't think recruits are picking based on the city/town anyway (the campus/school is rightly way higher on the priority list) - if that weren't the case, DePaul probably wouldn't be the worst high major program in college hoops; and B) while Indy is obviously not NYC or Chicago, those generally aren't the places we are competing with anyway. Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Omaha, West Lafayette? These types of places aren't drawing kids because their town is better than Indy.
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  14. Dawgedd

    Dawgedd Well-Known Member

    Coaching continuity, coaching continuity, coaching continuity. Yes, other factors play some role (facilities) but by far, our recruiting suffers because of our coaching turnover. What other big east (or top 50 program) have had 4 coaches in the last 5-6 years?

    Holtmann's recruiting over his short time at Butler continued to get better. In 2016, we signed one top 100 guy in Brunk, in 2017 we signed 2 top 100 guys in David and Young. We cannot know what the 2018 class would have been with Holtmann, but we likely would have signed 2-3 top 150 players and maybe even a top 40 guy (Weaver).

    If Lavall can help guide the team to a middle finish in the big east this season and cultivate relationships for the 2019 class we will take a step back (middling finishes in the big east) but ultimately not suffer too much (no 4-14, 9th place big east seasons a la 2013). It's just frustrating because it felt like Holtmann was building a top big east program, and then bolted for (supposedly) greener pastures (hello, Lickliter). If Lavall can emulate Holtmann's track over his first three years on (T 2nd, 5th, 2nd in the Big East) and off (getting more top 100 guys to sign each consecutive year) the court, that would be a huge success.

    But then, Lavall would be in every conversation for every 'top' head coaching job vacancy. So, most importantly, let's hope LaVall is in it for the long haul and Collier has reflected on what he can do to retain coaches. There's no reason Butler cannot recruit top 50 guys--we just need the continuity from the coach to do it.
  15. shoeevv

    shoeevv Well-Known Member VIP Member


    FDR, I agree with your assessment. I think "The Butler Way" is a double-edge sword. When BU was in the HL, "TBW" meant getting high character, high BB IQ, lunchpail guys who over achieved. It worked astonishingly well. We were all able to root for a team that not only was good, but made everyone feel proud of being a Butler fan. When BU joined the big time and became a member of the BE, the coaching staffs had to refocus on who they needed to sign in order to compete on the highest stage. The kind of kid who has the talent to play in the BE, doesn't usually want to be "the gritty glue guy". They want to be on Sports Center. And that's the "good" kids too. I don't believe there's anything wrong with X's recruiting strategy of bringing in kids of marginal academics or checkered pasts. To be a force in big time college basketball you can't only have nice, smart, safe kids, you have to take some chances. What I do fault X for, and would never want to see Butler emulate, is how X handles the situation when a player screws up. Again, give a kid a chance, but make sure everyone knows the ramifications if a player makes bad decisions. In my opinion, Butler has not done a good job of rebranding itself as being a national power where kids with NBA aspirations can excel.
  16. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    If the argument is kids pick the coach and not the school then coaching turnover is the reason. If the kid picks the school(academics) then it's Butler over Wichita State by a country mile.

    Yea facilities play a role as do Saturday football games with 100,000 fans and waterfalls in the cool down room. Butler will never ever keep up with facilities. For some kids their site is getting through one year with little academics and then turn pro ( Kentucky and now Duke). Others want smaller classes, good academics and a solid bball program. Others relegate academics down the list of priorities.

    Maybe Butler should lower its academic and character requirements. I don't think that will happen. The bball program does not drive the bus. It is there to promote the university and help increase enrollment.
  17. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    I mostly agree with this. As far as campus culture, you don't get a real look at campus life without living it. You get a production. Our production isn't going to match a state school's, for many reasons, including girls. In actuality however, man, the people I had around me in college stand alone as some of the best people I could possibly imagine.

    As far as academics, Butler has a solid to good reputation amongst educated people. High schoolers do not fit into that group. It's not somewhere you put on the "look what school I got into" list.

    Even amongst the educated people who know butler, it's not ND or Northwestern.

    That being said, I've taken classes at Butler, Northwestern and another highly regarded private school. At Northwestern, I had no problems with the intensity or content of what I was taught. Northwestern kids used me as a resource for assistance. The average Northwestern kid is generally more accomplished on paper than the average Northwestern kid, but I almost assure you I did not learn less from Butler than I would have at Northwestern.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  18. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    I attended the Texas A&M football game last week in College Station. A&M is the second largest college in the US at just over 60,000 students. The campus is virtually a city. The expanded football stadium of 100,000 + is truly impressive as is the 8 story hotel being built across the street from the stadium. One can stay in the hotel if one donates $100,000. The donation only entitles you to a reservation if a room is available which you still have to pay for. A&M now has the largest athletic budget at just below $200 million.

    My point in stating all of this is that I wonder if college sports is nearing a tipping point.
  19. LA-OC-IE

    LA-OC-IE Active Member


    Although I agree with you Insane, Duke and others certainly have.
    Kevin Knox was offered $1M to play one year in China, turned it down to play a year in Lexington.
    What happens to UK basketball when Adam Silver / NBA change the one and done rule....?
    Either way, likely not spending time in Lexington...either China for 2 years @ $2M or straight to the League.
  20. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

    I think so. So I work as a venture capitalist, which means I spend all day at the very front of the tech world. It is mind-blowing the growth of e-sports, or even people PAYING to watch nerds play video games just like we pay to watch sports. The NFL ratings are way down, and many Millennials would rather watch video games than sports. I'm thinking we're at the peak... as this shift happens, tv rights deals drop, salaries drop, the kind of things you get in College Station drop, etc. Only a matter of time. We're in the middle of a big shift. You've all seen the ESPN (and cable in general) subscriber number issues. If football salaries start to come down, or NBA (may still take years), I wonder if there will be as much incentive to play (especially the punishment you take playing football). With the CTE issues, I wouldn't be surprised if the sport is a shell of itself in 20-30 years.

    So I would agree with you Insane...
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