Random Thoughts

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by willisbrown, May 25, 2019.

  1. Ross Hall

    Ross Hall Active Member

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    I would take harbaugh over some of these guys, and take a few of these guys over harbaugh. My point was more that after the top couple coaches, there is a bigger group of guys that if everything breaks right, they can win big. Not really worth arguing about, but I do think the narrative that harbaugh is a bad coach is not true.
     
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  2. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

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    I think Harbaugh takes a lot more crap than he should. Michigan fans need to lower their expectations. They think every year they’re on the same level as Ohio State. When really they should take more of a Penn State attitude of consistently having a great defense then about once every 4 years have a qb & offense that can beat Ohio State.
     
  3. Clevedog

    Clevedog Well-Known Member

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    I think most Buckeye fans want Harbaugh to stay at Michigan as long as possible. This year's win against OSU was his one bright spot. If he leaves it is because he wants out before the Buckeyes stomp them next year. Ohio State opens against Notre Dame next year, should tell us a lot about both teams
     
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  4. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I root for the Irish casually, and I fully expect Ohio State to win pretty easily. The talent discrepancy they have is vast. Notre Dame holds up pretty well at home against anyone and anywhere against non top 3-4 teams, but they really really struggle away from home with those elite talent teams.


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  5. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member

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    Ohio State is the only team with SEC level freaks all over the field in the Midwest. ND will get run by 2+ TD’s. I think Freeman will get some of those guys eventually, but the level of athlete at O$U is just different.

    Staying with the B1G, I’m looking forward to AOC slinging it at Purdue for a sixth season. The kid throws dots, has fantastic pocket presence and is a winner. Will be interesting to see how Purdue bounces back after losing two studs, but I think they have some sneaky depth. Boilers are looking at potentially winning the West with an easy schedule. Most difficult game will be @PSUButlerFan at Ross-Ade the first week of the season.
     
  6. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    The same Jimbo Fisher who had better recruiting classes than almost anyone the last 4 years and went 8-4 with them?

    The same Brian Kelly who stacks 10 wins a year against the effectively mid-major ACC and gets beaten by everyone worth beating?

    The same Ryan Day who took over a program on auto-pilot and got utterly embarrassed by bama despite the elite talent he inherited? (He also got worked over by a crappy Michigan offense this year despite having clearly superior talent).

    The same Lane Kiffin with a 76-41 career record (Harbaugh is 119-51)?

    The same Matt Campbell who is 42-34 at Iowa state (lol seriously?!?!).

    Get real man.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
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  7. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think calling the ND sos “effectively mid major” is fair.

    In FPI ND Had the 43rd toughest sos this year. TAMU was 50, Oklahoma was 40, Utah was 46, Cinci was 53 even after Bama.

    They played effectively the same schedule as anyone who didn’t have a conference championship game.

    In 2020 they played the 8th best SOS. 2019 was 35, 2018 was 23, 2017 was number 2, 2016 was 34, 2015 was 16, 2014 was 29, 2013:31, 2012 was 15.

    They play basically as hard of a schedule year in year out as anyone, and calling their schedule effectively mid major is wholly unjustified by data.


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  8. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    I wasn’t clear - wasn’t calling their schedule mid major; was saying the ACC is effectively mid major, and they’re essentially in the ACC. It’s an exaggeration, but relative to the other power leagues, the ACC is a joke.

    And FWIW, I don’t know enough about the FPI to make a nuanced critique, but lol at ND’s schedule being = to TAMU’s. Maybe TAMU’s is just dragged down a bunch in metrics because they played NM and prairie view.

    ND played one clearly strong opponent this year, and they were beaten handily. At home. And then that opponent wasn’t even competitive against college football’s elite. It’s typical.


    Sent from my iPhone, so it’s probably not written all that well
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2022
  9. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but the majority of the top ten also aren’t /wouldn’t be competitive against the college football elite. Ole Miss also got blown out. Being a top ten team that gets blown out by bama does not delegitimize your qualification as a top ten team.

    As far as TAMU, they played Prairie View a&m, Mizzou, New Mexico, Colorado, and Kent State all of whom are TERRIBLE.

    Nd’s easiest games were GA Tech, Stanford and Navy, and GA Tech is as good as the best of those bad teams. That means that TAMU effectively replaced power conference teams with bottom 20% teams against ND’s schedule.

    Nd still played teams ranked 9,13 (neutral) 25, 43, and 51 (road). Average: 28.2

    TAMU played 2, 18, 20, 21, 36. Average: 19.4

    The schedules are really not that dissimilar at the top and ND is much better at the bottom.


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  10. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    The point wasn’t to delegitimize Cincy but to underscore how far Kelly was/is from being competitive with the top, which is what this conversation is about.
     
  11. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but I don’t see that being an indictment on coaching ability. You think BK is going to LSU if he could get the same kids into ND? Those teams are better than everyone else because they play by different rules.

    Let’s say though that not being competitive with Bama does delegitimize Kelly’s coaching credentials. Couldn’t you say the same thing about Harbaugh though? What does he have, 1 top 5 win in like 5 years?


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  12. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    You keep impliedly arguing against positions I’m not taking. I never said Harbaugh was some legitimate competitor with Saban - he’s obviously not - and that’s not the point of any of this. I was pointing out that there’s no good reason to think Kelly (and others) are clearly better, which again was the original point of PSU’s I was arguing against. I don’t think there’s a good case to argue more than maybe 4 or so college coaches are better. (This also doesn’t mean Harbaugh is better than all but 4 coaches!)
     
  13. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    That’s fair. I don’t think there’s an argument that could support bk being marketedly better than Harbaugh.

    I do think Harbaugh and Bk are certainly better than Jimbo.


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  14. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    This post is a joke, right? I mean you’re not actually serious?

    Jimbo has a National Championship and Play-off appearance.

    Brian Kelly got Notre Dame into the playoffs multiple times and has another national title appearance.

    Ryan Day literally lost his first conference game this year. Went to the playoffs once, the National title once, and just won the Rose Bowl.

    Kiffin you could make a case for Harbaugh, but he wins everywhere outside USC when he was a very different coach, and there’s no data to prove this, but I would bet he could do as well as if not better than Harbaugh at Michigan given the massive step up in resources.

    Matt Campbell is an incredible coach that would kill it anywhere with more resources. This is IOWA STATE. An afterthought in their own state. Like how Butler is an afterthought in Indy to IU - that’s Iowa State. Before he got there, they won 3, 2, and 3 games. His last 5 seasons - 8,8,7,9,7. He has won two bowl games - that’s tied for most of any coach in ISU history. One of those was a NY6 game. Clearly you have no idea how hard it is to win in Ames. That said, you could make a case for Harbaugh here too.

    Otherwise… Harbaugh has won ONE division title at Michigan (He beat Rutgers 20-13, snuck by a mediocre PSU by 4 with an injured QB, and finally beat his rival - their worst team in years - in a blizzard). He then played a crap Iowa team and won his first conference title. Then got blasted in the playoffs. Harbaugh has won ONE bowl game - in the 2015 season. After that - now 5 straight losses.

    I didn’t include James Franklin in this because I don’t think he’s a great coach, but he won a conference title and went to 3 NY6 bowls in 4 years, winning 2 of them - Fiesta and Cotton. Something Harbaugh has not accomplished.
     
  15. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    When has Harbaugh been “competitive with the top”???

    He has lost to OSU every year but this year, got blasted by UGA, lost every bowl game (to FSU, South Carolina, Florida, and Bama before UGA year) but one after the 2015 season (beat Florida), and is 4-3 against PSU, which is one win above even.

    He’s not competitive with the top.
     
  16. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    For real - how do you not get that that’s not the point?
     
  17. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    For the record, I don’t think Harbaugh is a bad coach at all. He’s second best in his own family, but I think he’s good.

    I also like him a lot, even if he’s weird as ****.

    And he was my favorite player as a kid since he was QB in the NFL for my two favorite teams.
     
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  18. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    905B5317-9C14-4E58-BA38-02CA057761B5.jpeg

    “Being competitive with the top is what this conversation is about” - Hinkle

    How on earth do I not get that’s not the point when it’s only the words you posted in this thread?! How could I not understand?!?!

    “How do I not get that the point ISNT exactly what I said IT WAS 30 minutes earlier”

    I got nothing anymore… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  19. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    This is comical. The *entire* conversation is about comparing harbaugh to the coaches you’ve listed. Making a point about how far *KELLY* is from the top supports an argument that he’s not materially different from Harbaugh, who is *likewise* not competitive with the top.

    The point about Kelly relative to the top supports the original argument regarding him in comparison to Harbaugh.

    This is not that f*cking hard.
     
  20. PSUButlerFan

    PSUButlerFan Well-Known Member

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    Except Kelly has multiple playoff/champ game appearances and Harbaugh needed a down year to finally win the B1G East. Kelly is maybe the biggest asshole in college football, but he’s a better coach.
     
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