St. John's Red Storm (6-6, 1-5) vs Butler Bulldogs (3-6, 2-4), Tuesday, 1/12, 7:00 PM EST (FS1)

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ButlerNut, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    He tapped it on the way up which is a good tactic for him. Did he do that last time? I didn't see it.
  2. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    I mean I want Butler to win, but I am amazed at how much frustration there is here. I really don’t know what people expected. Even in a best case scenario this team was severely handicapped.

    What has happened is basically a worst case scenario, in a year that no one really cares about nationally.

    It’s gonna get better, just not this year.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  3. GoodDawgs

    GoodDawgs Active Member

    Sean and Kamar seemed to put a heck of a lot of energy into team-building off the court as well as on it last year. All the additions to this year's team, plus the atypical off-season and pandemic related issues of this fall and winter, would make it daunting for even the best of leaders to figure out how to do that at a really high level. And we really just don't have anyone that can completely calm down and center the guys on court by faithfully getting buckets the way those two did night in and night out. None of these guys have ever had that role at the college level. We need to remember Sean took several years to grow into that, and KB was just, well, extraordinary.
    Tentozen and ButlerProf like this.
  4. pjohnsto2003

    pjohnsto2003 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn’t follow anyone into a bar these days. Borrowed quote - “You suck at life”. Seriously - trying to get the board agitated is old. My guess - you are the perfect employee and have never made a mistake in your life. Is LaVall perfect - no. But the dude is doing the best he can with the $hitty hand he’s been dealt this year.

    If you’re not all in - that’s fine. But cut the old-ass crap and start blowing your apparent role model who is on his way out of the WH. Lord knows he’d take it from any place he can get it at this point. I’m sure he’d appreciate the generosity.

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  5. Tentozen

    Tentozen Well-Known Member

    Yeah, pretty much the same thing.

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  6. Tentozen

    Tentozen Well-Known Member

    I thought AT looked out of sorts for most of the game last night. Maybe it’s still the knee, but he wasn’t his normal self. To me the biggest moment of the game was after we cut it to 55-51 on the beautiful Nze to Golden dunk, and they then missed a 3 badly, and AT grabbed the rebound, but casually started to dribble up the floor, had it stolen, and then reached and picked up his 4th foul, and had to come out.
    He played just the 7th most minutes on the team due to the foul trouble, and led them in turnovers with 5, several of which were really careless. He also seemed a step slow on defense, so probably is still the knee. Our only hope to win these type of games is for him to be really good.
    We basically played them even the whole game, except for that terrible 9-0 run to end the first half.
    Thought Tate and Wilmoth were solid, especially Tate playing all 40 minutes and turning it over 3 times, while handling the ball the majority of the time. Most of those open 3’s he had looked good; just rimmed out.
    14 boards by Nze is pretty spectacular, and for whoever said they didn’t want to see him bring the ball up, he did it a lot, and didn’t turn it over.
    Just hope Harris is not serious, and Coles as well.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
    shoeevv, bwesson15 and BUcheer like this.
  7. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    I agree that was a big turning point of the game.

    The worst part is, none of it should have happened. The ball was tipped to Champagnie on that steal and he caught it while still out of bounds - and it was missed. But instead of us getting the ball back down 4 with a lot of momentum (and only 3 fouls on AT), we went down 6, had to take AT out, and lost all momentum. Such is life, I guess.
    PSUButlerFan likes this.
  8. WMUDog

    WMUDog Well-Known Member

    Just think. About one year ago we were a projected one seed. If Val is as bad as some people seem to think, it would not have been possible to even be flirting with the position were in then.
  9. Dawgedd

    Dawgedd Well-Known Member

    Yeah this is my only concern for the year. The results don’t matter insofar as making the tourney wasn’t an expectation and the injuries/covid have really made they impossible.

    But all the frosh have shown that they can play. The number one job of the coaching staff is to make sure the frosh know that they have a special class that has a chance to compete for the next 3 years. I do worry that the team going 4-14 in conference play might cause some frosh to look elsewhere especially knowing they aren’t from here, but I hope I’m wrong.

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  10. BURph92

    BURph92 Well-Known Member

    Just noticed I spelled Myles Wilmoth’s name incorrectly in a post from last night. Sorry about that.

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  11. iluvsnow

    iluvsnow Well-Known Member

    Jayden Tayler with 28 points last night in a loss....but what a player this kid is.....and at 6-4 with long arms. Criticize Jordan if you want...but when his coral is loaded next year....I think we will wonder why we doubted his long term strategy....

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  12. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User

    Eh, we'll see. Lots of kids come in looking pretty good when they're facing high school competition. Has to stay healthy and then we'll see how he develops. Future could be bright, but things will need to break the right way in order for that to happen.
    bumba and dawgs2014 like this.
  13. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member

    Warren is a Top 5 team in the state....they know how to hoop over there. He’s the top of the scouting report every night, doesn’t have a decent #2 at Perry and still drops 25+ every game. I think he’ll be better than Pierce.
  14. IrishDawghouse

    IrishDawghouse Active Member

    Kevin Ollie won a national championship at UConn and was fired 4 years later. Georgia football fired Mark Richt after he had won 2 SEC championships and was 2x SEC coach of the year with a 145-51 record. The Jets fired Adam Gase after his many accomplishments that include... nah I’m just kidding. Now I’m not saying LJ should be fired after this year, but you don’t get a free pass from criticism because Butler was projected as a 1 seed during some 3 day span of December pre-conference play

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  15. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member


    Now here's some solid logic. Not. In 2019 -20 Butler built up a 15 - 1 record and a number 5 ranking against a schedule loaded with home games against cream puffs and against only one other ranked team, Baylor, on the road, and resulting in the one loss. After 15 - 1, they play another ranked team, 18th ranked Seton Hall at home, and get their butts kicked, on the way to a 3 game losing streak. Why, since Lavall is such a great coach as you logically point out, do they go 7 - 8 the rest of season and on the way to another double digit losing season? What happened? Luckily, getting a break from Covid and the season ends they only lose 9. Oh, and a couple of those victories early on, like against Stanford, were lucky wins.

    If Jordan was as creative and effective a coach and you people are at making up all the fricking excuses we really wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Here's something to consider that should instill a whole lot of confidence...

    16 - 17 Milwaukee 11 - 24
    17 - 18 Butler 21 - 14 (this was a Sweet 16 roster that grossly underachieved under Jordan)
    18 - 19 Butler 16 - 17
    19 - 20 Butler 22 - 9 (this is probably as good as it will ever get under Jordan. Hope you enjoyed it.)
    20 - 21 Butler (here we go again, on the way to another losing season.)

    Of course, you don't need to look at the records. Just "eyeballing" Jordan's teams it is painfully obvious how under-coached, underachieving and undisciplined they all have been. Do you really believe this guy is going to lead Butler to the promise land???? Too young, too inexperienced, Covid, he just needs his own players for his system, we don't spend enough on recruiting, the fieldhouse is too old, injuries, etc. And of course Jordan's own personal favorite excuse....the upperclassmen need to show some leadership. Now we're already starting with the excuses that some of these kids will transfer because the current team play really sucks. But early on we went 15 - 1 last year and were a 1 seed projection. You have to stay!

    Just one a dozens of example: In the 2019 season, Butler travels to Nebraska for the NIT. Nebraska's roster has been devastated by injury and players quitting. Only 8 players and 3 of them are walk-ons. Tallest player is 6 - 8 and after him it drops down to like 6 - 3 or 6 - 4. Jordan has two players 6 - 10+ (stiffs, granted). Obvious game plan, picks and back picks and flash one of the stiffs right at the bucket for layups. And possibly foul out the 6 - 8 guy. Needless to say, never happened. Not once was there a flash or post up. Butler loses. Val?

    Nice guy. Butler man. Sadly, he's just not a head coach. And if he stays as head coach, get him some fricking badly needed help. And don't start with the ridiculous analytics. My eyes work just fine.
  16. Staxawax

    Staxawax Well-Known Member

    Not this year. 5-4. Unranked.

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  17. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    All true statements, but watching Taylor from last year to this year, it literally is a different player. I had him as a fringe we'll see, he's got to develop to this year, the jump in his ability to stay under control, make better decisions, quicker. Be decisive, be efficient all the while like others have said, he is 1-10 on the scouting report, to get the numbers he's having this year with the efficiency he's getting them at has me all smiles. You can tell he put in the work in the off season and this is making the commitment as a junior in high school. He's not just better this year, he's become a totally different play. I had always thought that Pierce was the one to really look out for, and he still has loads of upside, but Taylor is reminding me kind of like Ivey at Purdue this year. Made just a huge jump in his game from junior to senior year.
    znelson15 and TheDawgDub95 like this.
  18. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    Such a great post.

    Every year is a new year...and this will be 2 of 3 years with a bad record and a wildly underachieving 2017-2018 season (reg season). It's ok to question him. He's far from a good coach. And his staff is Horizon level. So is the focus and intensity of this team and the training staff. Hell that's not even horizon level.
  19. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    Ollie got fired due to violations...Richt was just too old school and needed to revamp to the new age of football to compete with the Alabama's LSU's Clemson's.

    You could go with Doug Pederson winning the only Eagles Super Bowl and getting fired, but apparently he stuck up for the wrong guy he wanted for Off Co
    jeff likes this.
  20. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Ahhh this sounds so good until we actually fact any of it.

    2018 kenpom final ranking: 20, which was also their best ranking of the year. Now call me crazy but I’d expect a team that grossly achieved by not making the sweet 16 to be one of the 16 best teams in the country, but alas we were not. I’d also expect a poorly coached team to not improve throughout the year, yet we did-substantially.

    2019: we unquestionably were terrible on defense.

    2020: supposed fluke ranking of 5. Well, it may have been *somewhat* flukey due to 3 point luck, but we were actually ranked 4 or 5 on kenpom for nearly two weeks between jan 4 and Jan 15. We built up that resume by beating a tournament quality team in Stanford on a neutral floor, beating a tournament quality purdue team on a neutral floor, blowing out a tournament quality Florida team on our home floor, blowing out a conference championship quality creighton team on our home floor, beating a tournament quality Minnesota team on our home floor, and beating a tournament quality Providence team by 12 on their home floor.

    Of our first 16 games, seven were against teams that would finish in the top 43 on Kenpom, and only 3 of those games happened at home.

    In fact if I’m not mistaken, we *still* led the country in quad I wins last season.

    Now, about that “butt kicking” against Seton Hall. We led that game until there was 7:12 left. Then the defensive possession after we give up the lead, Aaron Thompson fouls out, and we lose the rest of the game by 7 for a final margin of defeat of 8.

    We then got a 99th percentile performance from Depaul’s offense and then played at Nova. We also missed 3 games from Thompson with an injury.

    So what changed? Well two things, and this is why I say our start was *somewhat* flukey. For our first 16 games opponents shot 26.2% on 3’s and 43.5% on two’s. They got to the line 27% of their possessions. In the remainder of the games they shot the exact same percent on two’s, but this time they got to the line 34.9% of the time, and more strikingly, made 40.3% of their 3’s.

    We went from fourth nationally at defending the 3 to 351st.

    Does that make *any* sense? That we would go from the best team to the worst team? Or does it make more sense that there was luck on both ends? It almost is like it was even foreseeable and guys like Jared and Hinkle may have said something.

    So, I enjoyed your take, but it’s wrong. It is inaccurate about the good parts, and just stupid about the bad parts of last season.

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