Style of Play

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by JMCBigWayne, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. JMCBigWayne

    JMCBigWayne Active Member

    My wife and I recently rewatched the Butler-Duke National Championship game and it obviously allowed me to make some comparisons/contrasts to this LJ led basketball team.

    This has been said before but in light of the recent success by both Virginia and Texas Tech I thought I’d bring it back up for discussion:

    Why are we not attempting to play a walk it up the floor, grind it out on defense style of basketball? It feels like between AT and Baldwin we should have a better defensive identity and this style of play which made up for lack of talent in the past would work again for us now rather than this push it up the floor take bad shots and fall back in to a 4-out high ball screen predictable offense.
    seadawg likes this.
  2. TheDawgDub95

    TheDawgDub95 Well-Known Member

    I understand this line of thinking, but I don't think VA or TT were lacking in talent. I also think those BU teams had an incredible level of talent.

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  3. pjohnsto2003

    pjohnsto2003 Well-Known Member

    As well as heart and pride.

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  4. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    The little secret of BU's success has been in finding the hidden gems in recruiting. Always has been and will continue to be in the for seeable future.
  5. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    That was also not a great Duke team and BU has a ton of luck getting there
  6. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

    The problem with Butler's style of play today and with the style of 2010, is today Butler has no offensive scheme just pound the ball for 25 seconds and then fire up a three
    regardless of who has the ball. It is maddening to watch, Butler doesn't run sets for their shooters, they do not how to set screens to get shooters open. Too much scatter ball.
    dippper61 and willisbrown like this.
  7. bobbu64

    bobbu64 Active Member

    You may or may not be right, but it was an entertaining game, maybe not in your estimation. You are the first person I have heard denigrate the game. You have every right to say what you want about the next year's final, but you missed the boat on this one. I'm certain that you think Virginia didn't have any luck this year.
  8. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Luck is always part of the equation but it only happens when preparation meets opportunity.
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  9. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Virginia had a ton of luck and no you don’t what I think. I’m not denigrating the 2010 team . I went to both national championship games and the first one was exciting while the second one was embarrassing. . That 2010 was a great game and Butler deserved to be there but like Virginia they had a lot of things fall their way like beating Michigan State by 2 without Kalin Lucas. I believe Duke had one player that made it to the NBA , Nolan Smith , who played for two years with Portland. So it wasn’t a typical Duke team. The following year the gods were definitely with Butler.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  10. jskierko

    jskierko Member

    Nolan Smith... and Singler, Lance Thomas, Plumlee(s). I think all of them spent at least a few seasons in the league.
  11. Butler1980

    Butler1980 Member

    Duke was good enough to be a #1 seed and leading up to the championship game had won their tournament games by an average of 17 (14 if you want to exclude the win over #16). That sounds like a typical Duke team to me.
    DawgPoundMac likes this.
  12. BulldogsAllTheWay

    BulldogsAllTheWay Well-Known Member

    Yeah, it’s a pretty hot take to say that Duke team wasn’t good. They didn’t have the one and done NBA talent but they had a bunch of really good juniors and seniors. Scheyer, Singler, and Smith were studs. Bet that Duke team would beat this year’s.

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  13. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

    I would never say that Duke team wasn't good, but it also wasn't a typical Duke team, either. They had a few players who played a minute in the NBA and two of the Plumlee brothers were drafted late and stuck around for a little while.

    That team was a bit of a surprise as far as Duke goes. It didn't have any stud players the way Duke's other title teams did 91, 92 (Hill, Laettner, Hurley), 01 (Battier, Williams). They had not won an ACC regular season title in several years. The 2010 team was expected to be good, not great.

    There were all these questions, which are funny in retrospect, going into the season about whether the game and particularly recruiting had passed Coach K by. That was the hot topic for the local sports yakkers on radio that off-season.

    This was before he fully embraced the one-and-done model. Roy Williams had just won his second title since coming to Chapel Hill and the two programs are perpetually compared to each other. K had a number of recruiting misses post J.J. Redick. Duke had a new AD and some people were wondering if it wasn't time to move K along.

    Then 2010 happened. A season later Jeff Chapel joins the staff, Duke's recruiting model changes drastically, and there are no more questions about K's recruiting or the game having passed him by.

    Among my Duke-fan friends there seems to be a real split over that 2010 team. To some it's their favorite because it was a surprise. To others it's the least interesting of the title teams because it lacked that star player or two.
    knobcreekfan likes this.
  14. TKE Ghost

    TKE Ghost New Member

    I think if there was a success:talent ratio this year's team would rank among the worst we have seen in a long time. That being said, Lavall has from the start wanted to increase tempo and push for more possessions, but I never agreed with that approach. Good coaches will implement a play style that best fits the players they have. What Lavall has done so far is push the play style he wants, regardless of the players he has. I don't think the recruiting we have seen so far will make things much better, but I also see frequent coaching changes as a recruiting setback.
    BUBlue and willisbrown like this.
  15. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    What playing style are you specifically talking about? Our tempo ranks are virtually identical to Holtmann.

    Under Holt we averaged 233 in tempo nationally and Under Lavall its 235. That suggests he has adjusted to the players he has.

    There are plenty of criticisms that can be made imo but I think we are placing misguided blame on the coaches.

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  16. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    That's what I always thought. But then, after BU tasted some high-level success under Brad Stevens, people on the Yuku board and then this one, started, slowly at first, talking about all the great athletes we would soon be getting. Elite high-schoolers Butler never got so much as a sniff of in the past.

    At the time I figured that success would naturally bring access to better athletes and recruiting and it did to some degree. People on the Board were talking of 4 and maybe 5 star recruits but most importantly folks here dreamed of 40 minutes of baseline to baseline sprinting, jumping-out-of-the-gym athletes who posterize All-America athletes just for kicks and leave for the NBA after a year or two.

    Wait a minute, I thought. Why in the world do you fans want to see basketball played that way? I guess that's been the style for some time now nationally but I think of lot of it is just flashy eye-candy: it looks cool, but's it's kinda trashy playground ball. But people here talked it up and prayed for it.

    In the past I never worried about BU playing that way because they couldn't get the athletes. Which is great! That's what makes (made?) Butler hoops special. Why would you want to venture too far from Butler's classic playing styles and system? Look at the playing style recently... it is not good.

    I've completely lost my train of thought. Point is: more back-screens, less thunderdunks.
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  17. BulldogsFTW

    BulldogsFTW Well-Known Member

    But seriously, I think the need is to be somewhere in the middle. To complete in the Big East consistently, we do need elite athletes. I think we also would benefit tremendously from playing with the grit and intensity of the teams that built our brand. The two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, but we haven't done a great job of meshing them.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  18. BoyGeoff

    BoyGeoff Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Agree with somewhere in the middle. All the elite bigs (6'9" + with demonstrated offensive and defensive prowess) go to big names...Duke, Ky, Ks, NC etc. with rare exceptions. To compete effectively in the Big East you must have athletic bigs IMO. Perhaps lacking in offensive skills, but physically capable of explosive power and quickness. Butler has been working up hill since joining Big East in terms of having that physical presence. There have been plenty of games and teams that have been able to use that superior size and power particularly in the rebounding area. Providence, Xavier, Seton Hall, Creighton, Georgetown, St John's. I think the 4 needs to be size and explosive power. Running the floor would be an added bonus. Whether they can shoot, etc is not important. 3 and maybe 4 star that have that athleticism is essential. Hopefully they can develop over 4 years to have a well rounded game.
    The guard position on the other hand, needs to be elite level 4 star players that have demonstrated both offensive skills and defensive skills. There are more quality guards available then bigs. Add some elite shooters and that is my wish list. Whether the tempo is fast or slow should be dependent on the composite of players year to year. That becomes the coaches agenda. We do not have a single big on our current roster that has those athletic qualities.

    Character, grit, intensity are qualities the coaches determine for fit in the recruiting process. As I have said in the past, the vision for the team and mindset of the players is on the coach. Texas Tech is a great example of team vision and mindset exemplified through the coach.
  19. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member


    Not sure where to put this but....

    Looks like AT knows what to work on this offseason.
    Mad_Dawg 48 and TheDawgDub95 like this.
  20. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

    He’s working with the right guy. Looks like his shot is much smoother tbh.

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    Mad_Dawg 48 and TheDawgDub95 like this.

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