The Goat Is?

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by TheGoatIs, May 3, 2020.

  1. TheGoatIs

    TheGoatIs New Member

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    Hello all,

    In light of the movie release, many began to discussion who is the GOAT?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2020
  2. SnoopDawg

    SnoopDawg Well-Known Member

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    But who is the Butler Goat? My vote is with Matt Howard or Brad Stevens.
     
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  3. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

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    Barry Collier or Tony Hinkle from administration. Matt Howard definitely as a player.
     
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  4. TheDawgDub95

    TheDawgDub95 Well-Known Member

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    I could see Collier vs Hinkle vs Howard vs Stevens creating some difference of opinions as it relates to impact on the basketball program.

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  5. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I would say Mack probably needs to be in the conversation.
     
  6. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member

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    Carried us to a F4. Not discrediting other players, but that dude was on a mission.
     
  7. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Did anyone check out that janky website in the OP? Everything tells me it's a bad idea to open it and yet morbid curiosity has me so tempted.
     
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  8. CarmelDawg23

    CarmelDawg23 Well-Known Member

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    Michael Jordan /thread

    Only people who can argue LeBron are the uneducated or people born in the 2000s (these two tend to blend together pretty often).
     
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  9. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    It’s just a poll that also collects your email. I’ve removed it from the OP, but I’ll leave the actual thread up. Because at least the resulting discussion it’s more on topic than half the other stuff being discussed right now.


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  10. Jared Grubbs

    Jared Grubbs Administrator Staff Member

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    Depends on the comparison being made IMO. Are you picking prime Jordan up from the 90s and moving him to today’s NBA and comparing him to Lebron? Lebron would dominate him. It’s just a different era and the game and the players have evolved significantly in the last 25 years.

    Or are you comparing Jordan in his era to Lebron today? Or saying if Jordan grew up today with the same knowledge and training and such that Lebron had? Then it’s a vastly different comparison.


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  11. CarmelDawg23

    CarmelDawg23 Well-Known Member

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    I think you also factor in how the game would be officiated. I know Jordan got his fair share of calls in the 80s and 90s, but the refs also let the teams play a lot more back then. I actually think MJ would benefit with today's game because he would be able to initiate a lot of contact and get a lot of superstar calls. LeBron would personally have to toughen up to play with 80s/90s style officiating...he cries way too much for someone who is so physically dominant (which I agree Jared...LeBron would muscle MJ in today's game because of the evolution of the game and the athletes in general).
     
  12. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    Jordan was a more efficient player despite a *significantly* less efficient shot selection pattern simply because analytics weren’t really a thing yet. His usage was also higher than Lebron’s (and his stats are weighed down a bit by sitting out what would’ve been two prime seasons).

    Considering he was (1) higher volume and (2) more efficient than the best player of this era in an era that (3) asked you to take inherently inefficient shots (4) against defenses that could play physically, I think it is frankly absurd to think it’d take prime age Jordan more than a season to figure out how to obliterate the modern NBA.
     
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  13. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I take this stance. If you want to argue hypothetical changes or adjustments to the player to fit the game, I think you can make a valid case for either player.

    If you are going to take Prime Jordan and Prime Lebron it’s just not even close. The physical dominance Lebron has is just a different level.

    Jordan might have been the best player relative to his era, but he’s not the best to ever play the game.



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  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Jared is arguing against your point. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn’t. I think it’s likely he would, but you have to create scenarios that didn’t and don’t exist. I think Jared is saying that’s a fair comparison, but when you compare the player jordan actually was and the player James actually is, James is clearly better.


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  15. Robinzine Crying

    Robinzine Crying Active Member

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    Though it's not exactly what you're asking, I've always enjoyed this discussion: Who do you want taking the last shot to win the game? I'd take Jordan with 10 seconds or less remaining. But any more time than that, I'd take Kareem. Almost a full six percentage points better on field goal accuracy than LeBron or Jordan. You just need the extra time to get him the ball.
     
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  16. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    The “last shot” debate is always interesting but I don’t think it is the same as the best player. Assuming a one point deficit or the game, play style analytics are thrown out the window as a mid range shot is perfectly reasonable in a n=1 sample.


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  17. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    Say more. Convince me that the “clearly” isn’t lunacy.
     
  18. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    When Jordan dunked from the free throw line, it was one of the premier athletic accomplishments in league history. It had only been done once before.

    Nowadays, it’s legitimately a backup dunk in high school all American games. I asked someone I know who works in pro basketball how common it was and they said it was about one guy per g league team. That goes to show you that the caliber of athlete now versus 25-30 years ago is just astronomically different.

    Additionally people compare Lebron James to Magic Johnson from a playing style perspective. The problem with that comparison, however, is that it ignores that Lebron physically measures out identically to Karl Malone, which is 30 lbs heavier than Magic. Additionally, Lebron is in the top 2-3 percentiles of NBA players in running speed. Jordan may have been too, but again, Jordan is 35 pounds lighter. Clearly, Lebron is overwhelmingly physically dominant.

    Second, the schematic complexity. While Jordan had to deal with hand checking, it was straight up man to man defense, where there was not much ability to “scheme” against a player. Part of that is the rules, illegal defense handcuffed what you were able to do, but the defensive schemes today are just far, far more complex than what they were in the 90’s.

    Another thing is that in addition to data, nutrition and exercise advancements, the depth of talent is just far greater now than it was 20 years ago. The 8th best player on every team now is far superior to the 8th best player years ago. I don’t think it’s possible to overstate how much more skilled and athletic the league is now than at the end of Jordan’s bulls career.

    From a skill perspective, Lebron attempts more 3’s, makes a higher percentage of 3’s, has more rebounds per game, more assists per game, a higher fg%, and is still an elite defender, against much, much better players and defenses.

    So we have a bigger, faster player, who performs statistically similar to, and in many/most skill measurements better than Jordan, against much, much better competition. I’d say that is a clearly better players.





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  19. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member

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    Lots of free throw line dunks for everyone to enjoy.

    Jordan's dunks seemed more effortless to me based on his ability. Some guys in the video are palming the ball down the court while others are jumping inside the free throw line. They're all crazy athletic, but MJ dribbled down the court, double pumped in the air, kicked his legs out & threw it down. The Shawn Kemp dunk is amazing as well.

    I think the thing that still impresses me about MJ is he's 6'6. I can remember seeing the Pacers-Bulls at Market Square Arena and he was shorter & skinnier than most guys on the court during the shoot around. Then the game started and he dominated the Pacers. No idea what year but it was early in his career.
     

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