West Gym and Wildman Rooms going up x2...yikes!

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by GO_DAWGS!, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    He hired a legendary coach (Brad Stevens). A massive dud (Brandon Miller). Lucked out into Chris Holtmann.

    Then hired a head coach with a 11-24 (.324) record at Milwaukee in the Horizon League.

    I don't think there's any conclusive evidence to make statements like "you're flat out wrong" without actually presenting facts and data here.

    Like I said, I think Collier's done a good job given Butler's limited resources, but I'm also not going to treat him like he's infallible at the job.

    Some of this recent head coaching hires have been questionable.
     
  2. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    I'm not taking one side or the other but anyone that uses his 1 year 11-24 record at UWM clearly either doesn't watch basketball or is trying to just skew data their way. LJ came into that job with that team having lost just about any body who knew what basketball was the returning high scorer the previous year average 5 points a game. Aside from coming back from the death penalty that was probably the worst situation a coach could walk into and that team by the went off the year went to the title game. I question a lot of what is going on here. But that first coaching season he did an absolutely amazing job. I want that version of LJ

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  3. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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  4. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I watch plenty of basketball and am not trying to skew data.

    Butler hired a coach who didn't have a great record in a mid-major conference to coach at a major conference with no other head coaching experience.

    You can say he was the basketball savior at Milwaukee and turned water into wine, I don't really care.

    At the end of the day, you are what your record is. I just stated a fact. Collier clearly took a major leap of faith by hiring Jordan, that's pretty undisputed.

    We'll see if it works out for Jordan here, but things looking like they're trending down, not upwards right now. That could certainly change though.
     
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  5. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    Lol Phil Jackson couldn't have won more than 11 games with that UWM team. That's absolutely an absurd way to think "his record is what his record is" as for leap of faith yes that is true. Stevens had less coaching experience than Jordan. If he's could see into the future this would be easy for everyone. I'm just saying when making an argument you might just want to know everything before throwing things out. I'd this were a courtroom and that was your argument you'd be torn to shreds. Again I'm not on either side if you're going to make that argument you can't expect it not to come with push back with real facts.

    That's like saying Ted Williams went 0-3 in his first game. He shouldn't be playing in the majors...for those who don't know who Ted Williams is, he's the greatest hitter of all time.

    And for the record he went 1-4 in his actual first game with a double

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  6. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Good thing this isn't a courtroom then, bud.

    Coaches are always evaluated by their record. You can say, they did a "great job" with what they had and blah, blah, blah, but Butler still hired a coach with limited head coaching experience, with a significant losing record at a mid-major, and it was a significant leap of faith. If Jordan hadn't been a Butler player, would he have even been hired?

    You can say, "Yeah, it worked out with Stevens who had less coaching experience." Great, it was almost a nuclear bomb a hire later with another inexperienced coach Brandon Miller, who could've destroyed the program--had Chris Holtmann not been a pleasant find and solidified it. You're over here saying to call it both ways, but then you aren't.

    Get out of here with this nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  7. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    Just wow... I have no words. Did you get a Butler degree?

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  8. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Yep, and I'm actually a licensed attorney. So next time you want to lecture someone on a courtroom, you should probably not do it on a Butler sports fan forum. I spend every day in a court room, but I'll have to remember to wear my suit, tie, and bring a brief case next time I'm typing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  9. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

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    Yikes, um what kind of law so I know where to stay away

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  10. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    The kind where you don't compare a one game, 1-4 sample size of Ted Williams to a 35 game regular season.
     
  11. estar20dawg

    estar20dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Lol hmm like what you were trying to compare LJs first season to... Maybe you are a good lawyer trying to manipulate data to try and make your point. I'll take it back. Sounds just like a lawyer grasping for anything to try to manipulate and distort to win their case

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  12. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I’d hope any real attorney would see that being an attorney provides no evidentiary support for the conclusion that one should not lecture someone on a sports chat forum.


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  13. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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  14. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    First of all, you can always tell when someone is losing an argument when they make personal attacks and say things like “LOL” instead of actually arguing it on the merits.

    The only evidence that I’ve heard that Jordan was a great hire is that Ted Williams went 1-4 in his first game, so that’s why LaVall Jordan will be a Hall of Fame coach. For all of the claims that my arguments lack evidentiary support, I actually cited a record which can’t be disputed. I’ve seen no quantitative or definitive evidence presented in favor of Jordan besides the aforementioned lousy “Ted Williams argument”. Please be better, especially after bragging about a Butler degree.

    Second, if you actually read what I initially said, I said I think Collier has done a GOOD job, but I don’t think he’s infallible. I’m certainly not overconfident in the direction of the program. He made a great hire (Stevens), a massive turd hire (Miller), lucked out (Holtmann), and the jury is out on the latest (Jordan). What part of that is untrue? If Jordan flops, he’s shooting .500 on head coaching hires. Do we still hail him as King Midas here with the ‘golden touch’?

    Third, the book is still unwritten on Jordan. However, I’m not sure how anyone can argue that his hire wasn’t a significant leap of faith by Collier. He had limited head coaching experience, went 11-24 in his only season with Milwaukee, never had a winning record, and if he wasn’t a former Butler player, would he have even been hired?

    You can argue that he may have been given an unfair hand at Milwaukee, but what about the rest is untrue?

    His recruiting has been good, but we’re what? Close to last in the Big East in a down year for the Conference? There’s been questions with his in-game coaching, offensive system, and rotations. Things look like they’re trending down right now. What part of what I just said is untrue?

    I prefer to call things objectively and weigh both sides. Not just live in the land of make believe with sunshine and rainbows.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  15. pjohnsto2003

    pjohnsto2003 Well-Known Member

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    I do think that Brad Stevens was mentioned.


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  16. wazthree

    wazthree Well-Known Member

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    Here you go. He made the ncaa tournament with a new team he took over in the middle of the summer. He managed to keep the team together and play well, could have been a complete disaster with any coach.

    Also, he made the second round of the tournament.

    I consider that a great year. I think you forgot about that and only cite UWM.


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  17. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I think we should point out that computer rankings, which we have accepted as objectively better rankings systems than humans, don’t give a damn if you win or lose the game.

    It’s how you perform relative to expectations given the level of competition, and Estar is saying that Lavall did that very well. Saying you’re only judged by your record is objectively wrong.



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  18. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and Kevin Ollie won a National Championship with Jim Calhoun’s players only to be fired a few years later at UConn.

    This is really the first year we are starting to see what Jordan can do with his system and his players. I’m sorry if I’m the only one not fully satisfied with how things are going right now.
     
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  19. wazthree

    wazthree Well-Known Member

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    ?? Who are his players?


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  20. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    You can agree or disagree but coaches are evaluated by their records. Maybe Jordan was given an unfair hand at Milwaukee and exceeded expectations there, that wasn’t even my point. My point was that Collier took a major leap of faith by hiring a young coach with one year of head coaching experience and a losing record in a mid-major conference. Would he have been hired if he wasn’t a former Butler player and weighed purely on his actual coaching? I don’t know for sure, but it’s a fair question to ask right now given Collier’s insistence on “Butler guys”.

    Yes, you can argue that Brad Stevens had 0 coaching experience, but Brad Stevens don’t grow on trees, and for every Stevens, just as we saw, there’s a Brandon Miller—who Collier also hired.
     

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