West Gym and Wildman Rooms going up x2...yikes!

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by GO_DAWGS!, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

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    $5,837
    Lol "his players." 8 of the 10 guys in the rotation were either already here or committed when LaVall took over.
     
  2. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
    $369
    I know he didn’t recruit Tyler Wideman and Kelan Martin who were two of our best players and instrumental in getting us to the tournament.
     
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  3. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
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    It’s ironic that people are saying Jordan can’t be blamed for what happened in Milwaukee (those weren’t his players!), but then are allowing him to take credit for what did he his first season at Butler (those weren’t his players!).

    Which one is it?

    My point was always, when he was hired, Jordan was a significant leap of faith by Collier. I’m not sure why everyone thinks that has to have a negative connotation. It doesn’t.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  4. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
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    And yes, I admittedly misspoke.

    I should’ve said Jordan has fully integrated his system on both offense and defense now and has not proven he can win without Holtmann’s players. Right now, we don’t even know if he can win much with them this season. We also don’t know if he could’ve won in Milwaukee with his players, which means uncertainty, which means even back then, his hire was a leap of faith by Collier. My whole point.

    The fact is we don’t know if Jordan is really good or really bad, as the jury is out. However, at the time of his hire, I’m not sure how you can say it wasn’t a significant leap of faith.

    I have questions with some of his coaching tactics, as do a lot of fans—although his recruiting has been good.

    My point was never that Jordan is awful. It’s unfair to say that at this point of time, but if you say anything remotely critical—even constructive, the sunshine and rainbows coalition comes out in full force.
     
  5. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf New Member

    Money:
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    I’m really, really tired of people bashing Brandon Miller. Go back and look again; Dawgs first Big East season, 10-1 or 2 non-conference, minus Rosie the whole year, unreal conference losses in OT, less than 5 points, with a squad that was recruited for Horizon league-can’t even count A10 recruits, followed Stevens, and leading a group of 18-22 year olds many who competed in the third conference in 3 years. I’m not making excuses for him; just stating facts. If you’re truly a Butler fan, let’s revere Brandon for all he’s given to Butler. Check yourself on compassion before you bash again. Peace out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  6. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I actually totally agree, but we have no reason to believe that Brandon couldn’t have become a very good coach.

    We lost our best player, and had a large amount of the team that had signed up for brad and didn’t buy in.

    Yes the wheels fell off that season, yes; I’m happy we ended up with Holtmann, but it’s entirely possible Miller could have still worked out as a very good hire.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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  7. knobcreekfan

    knobcreekfan Active Member

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    Yes. Brandon had/has health issues. They derailed his career, but have nothing to do with his coaching ability.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
     
  8. Eric

    Eric Active Member

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    ButlerProf likes this.
  9. Irishdawg

    Irishdawg Banned User VIP Member

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    Every coaching hire comes with some type of leap of faith. Even experienced, previously successful head coaching hires have bombed out at previously successful programs (ie Billy Gillispie), and even coaches who are successful now weren't necessarily immediately at their current programs (Beilein, Bennett, Wright).

    Butler isn't beyond doing what they've done (and done well considering the frequency which it's happened). No one currently coaching in the Big East other than Jay Wright made the NCAA tournament immediately before starting at their current school. The ones with high major head coaching experience (McDermott, Leitao) were both fired at those programs before coming to their current jobs and made one tournament between the two of them at that high major program (Leitao in 2007). Mullin, Wojo Ewing and Steele had zero head coaching experience. Mullin had zero coaching experience period.

    Willard's best finish at Iona was 3rd in the MAAC, and then it took him 6 years at Seton Hall before he made the tournament. Cooley won the MAAC regular season in his last year at Fairfield, but both he and Williard's first years at those mid-major programs were ones in which they won 13 and 12 games respectively.

    Butler's budget and facilities aren't in line yet with those schools. So my opinion is that while the hiring of Jordan does come with a component of faith, it isn't any more than what any other program in the Big East made with their current coach and staff.
     
  10. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

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    I was going to write something similar today but decided to bite my tongue. I'm 100% in agreement with you. I felt he was handed a huge problem that year and did the best he could with little talent and very serious health issues. Compassion is way overdue.
     
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  11. Red1972

    Red1972 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately it did not work for Brandon Miller, health issues disrupted his tenure and he was 10-3 in the non conference with a win over Purdue in the Crossroads Classic. It went south
    after an OT loss to Villanova in the opener. From what I understand there were several issues, mainly players who were recruited by Stevens not buying in. We will never know what would
    have or could have happened.
     
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  12. bubby

    bubby Active Member

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    Who is the dud? Brandon Miller? Last I heard he had serious health issues. Do you really want to pick on a guy who got really sick?
     
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  13. bubby

    bubby Active Member

    Money:
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    The "sunshine and rainbows coalition" is merely an over-correction toward the positive extreme of the Judge Coach Jordan spectrum, to wit: JORDAN=GOOD.

    This phenomenon occurs naturally when the pendulum has swung too far in the JORDAN=BAD direction. Similarly, the "Doom and Gloom" coalition comes out in full force whenever the pendulum has swung too far toward JORDAN=GOOD.


    Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  14. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf New Member

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  15. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

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    And this still doesn't change my argument. It was still a significant leap of faith by Barry Collier. I never said other Big East programs haven't in comparison, but people here like to read too far into the lines instead of taking a statement for what it is, a statement. There doesn't have to be a negative connotation with it.

    Now, people are making excuses by saying Brandon Miller had "health problems". I've heard of anything from drug, alcohol problems to marital issues with his wife, etc.. I'm not saying the former (drug/alcohol addiction) isn't a serious health issue or maybe he suffered from another serious health affliction, but at the same time, as a coach, you're judged by your results, and Miller flamed out here--in what could've set the program back years had Holtmann not come in and stabilized it. You can chalk it up to "health issues" all you want, but it still wasn't a good hire by Collier in retrospect.

    It would be like saying Jonathan Bender was a good pick by the Indiana Pacers as the 5th overall pick in the 1999 NBA Draft even though he had injuries. Unfortunately, injuries and health issues are a part of the overall evaluation if they ultimately determine a negative result.

    Also, Miller as a player has nothing to do with Miller as a coach, that's just a cheap way to gain Butler sentiment.

    Just as Jordan as a player has nothing to do with him as a coach, other than he has a leg up at understanding the "Butler Way" and our program's culture. Stevens wasn't a Butler player, but he was able to learn what that meant without playing for the university but as an assistant in time. It's nice to have a former Butler player as coach, just as it's nice to recruit in-state kids, but I'd rather have a coach who can coach, and players that can play--regardless of where they come from. Kamar Baldwin is a good example of that.

    Keep sunshining it in here though, folks (not directed at OP). I prefer to objectively look at both sides. Right now, Jordan looks like nothing more than a good recruiter, but average coach (*while that could certainly change*).

    However, people don't take constructive criticism very well on this board and prefer to live their life through rose err... Butler blue colored glasses.

    It's ironic that this whole debate started because I said Barry Collier has done a GOOD job, but had made a mistake, and thus, isn't infallible--noting the Brandon Miller hire. God forbid, someone not want to all unquestionably hail "King Midas" here because he can do no wrong though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  16. bmradio99

    bmradio99 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    If anyone wants to get back to the original pre-derailment topic, I can't like this post hard enough.
     
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  17. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I want to reiterate, because I'm seriously serious: cut football. We are one of only 3 Big East schools that operates a football team. The other two are Villanova and Georgetown, each of which dwarf Butler both in enrollment and endowment. Butler's athletic budget as a whole is already near the bottom, why in the world would we pour part of that small budget into a program that (a) costs a lot (I've never seen a figure, but there are a lot of people being paid, plus equipment, travel, etc. for a football team is expensive); (b) will never generate any meaningful revenue; (c) competes at a lower level than any other sport at Butler; (d) means nothing to anyone not directly connected to the program? As I've said before, I say this as someone who participated in a non-revenue sport at Butler, and I'd be the first to advocate for its demise if it was expensive and/or did not compete at the same level as all the other sports. The fact is basketball is the only sport that really matters. Tough decisions in the athletic department should be made accordingly.


    (Before anyone points this out, I'm aware of the dated rationale for football: it was an easy way to recruit an extra 15-20 students per class who would be paying nearly full pop in a lot of cases. Butler doesn't need an enrollment boost from football anymore.)
     
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  18. Hinkle Magic2

    Hinkle Magic2 Active Member

    Money:
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    I think there's a lot of valid points here. The main drawback I have is it would essentially eliminate Butler homecoming, which is a good way to keep alumni connected with campus, involved, and donating.
     
  19. OldSchoolDawg1983

    OldSchoolDawg1983 Active Member VIP Member

    Money:
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    With all due respect to the contributions that all former Butler football players have made to our university, its fair to inquire about the economic benefits football provides to Butler. I don't know the #s in [football revenues + contributions linked to autumn homecoming activities - football expenses], but given the very modest $175MM endowment, and the fact that our Pioneer conference affiliation requires us to maintain competitions with two FL schools and one CA school, I confidently assume this computation sums to a deficit.....and a material one.

    I write a check every year to Butler (Lacy School of Business) because: 1) Mens basketball keeps me connected to the university; and 2) Butler is developing a world class business school. At the risk of offending many, the bottom line is, men's basketball is the crown jewel not only of the athletic department, but of Butler's global reputation and its assets for attracting students and $contributions. If shifting expenditures from football to the basketball program boosts the prospects of the latter, I say we need to think unconventionally.

    I'm 58 years old.........I don't have much time left to see a Butler basketball national title!
     
    Hinkle likes this.
  20. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    The other thing that football probably does is substantially raise the costs of insurance for the athletic department.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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