Women’s Squad....

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by jkcdawgs, Jan 19, 2021.

  1. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member

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    Tough one. 1-9 to start the season.

    Last year was their best shot at the NCAAT with some talented Seniors, but they were pretty bubbly by the end of the season. Finished 19-11, but they bowed out early in the conference tournament.

    Here’s how they’ve fared under Godlevske:
    - two wins versus ranked opponents
    - zero NCAAT appearances
    - 2018-19 BE COY

    2019-20: 19-11 (11-7, 5th)
    2018-19: 23-10 (11-7, 3rd) NIT
    2017-18: 15-17 (6-12, 8th)
    2016-17: 6-25 (2-16, 10th)
    2015-16: 10-21 (4-14, 9th)
    2014-15: 14-16 (10-8, 6th)

    What’s the expectation? I’d love to see the program make the tourney every other year. Hell, even every three years. We’re nothing close to that.
     
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  2. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    It’s much harder in women’s basketball to make the tournament every couple years than in men’s basketball. The talent pool is dramatically, dramatically shallower and the Big East isn’t nearly as prestigious on the women’s side as it is on the mens.

    I was actually surprised to see in your post how successful they were the last couple years. Those last two seasons are certainly above expectations.


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  3. bmradio99

    bmradio99 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I was surprised/bummed when they didn't make the tournament in 18/19.

    dawgs2014 hit it on the head though. Big East WBB outside of UConn (then a huge gap), then DePaul, then Marquette and maaayyybe Seton Hall isn't much. Results against UConn aren't going to be much different in the BE than in the American.

    (Also knowing this thread should/will be moved to https://butlerhoops.com/forum/index.php?threads/butler-womens-basketball.828/page-6 )
     
  4. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

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  5. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Uh...I am....how can I put this best, I am *extremely* familiar with D1 women’s basketball.

    The talent pool is the talent of available top recruits.

    If a pool is shallower, not only does the cream rise to the top, but it means it has less volume.

    We see this in that there are a few teams maybe 6-7, (mainly SC, UCONN, ND, Stanford, Baylor) who take all of the top recruits and then what is left for everyone else is a different tier of player/athlete.

    Then the next tier goes to your power 5 schools, often headed by the SEC schools and a couple BIG schools.

    Unlike in men’s basketball where you have a guy like Adam Flagler end up at Presbyterian or Chris Clemons at Campbell, you don’t get many high major quality players going to non high majors, save for the rare examples like Dayton and Green Bay in the early part of the last decade.

    With talent to be spread around (also higher scholarship limits don’t help) your schools like Butler, Xavier, Valpo, Etc just can’t accumulate the talent necessary to really ever be regularly competitive with teams in power conferences.




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  6. ButlerNut

    ButlerNut Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    This picture just sums up how the women must have been feeling during that game.
     
  7. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    The size and speed difference was staggering. Butler didn’t do anything wrong at all, I actually thought they did a pretty good job getting shots.

    They just played a team that’s much better than them.


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  8. butlerguy03

    butlerguy03 Well-Known Member

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    I'm a big supporter of equality, but this is where fewer scholarships would benefit a sport. 3 fewer full-rides, make them 1/2 rides instead may help spread the wealth a little. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a work-around with Title 9 (and I'm not proposing one that cuts scholarships available to women). I could see women's basketball being a budget cut for schools eventually, especially if competitive balance remains the way it has been for the last quarter-century.
     
  9. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    100% cutting it to ten would make the sport better.


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  10. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

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    By your reasoning, there’s every reason we should be able to recruit and compete in our conference and beyond.


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  11. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

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    NCAA D1 men’s bball have a max of 15, women’ bball max of 13 full scholarships per year.


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  12. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

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    you have this flipped
     
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  13. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Correct.


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  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Right. Because Obviously less talent to go around means everyone gets more talent.

    Let’s look at this a different way. If you have fish in a fish tank, and all the fish are different sizes, what is the best way to ensure that the little fish get fed assuming each fish has a finite appetite. Is it to put more food in the tank, or less food in the tank?


    You really should consider thinking about what you write before you do the writing part.



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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  15. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

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    Idk a whole lot about women's college basketball specifically, but after reading some it seems the sport struggles from the same problem as college football. Each sport's professional league doesn't allow you to participate in it until after multiple years in college and offers an abundance of scholarships. 85 for football. 15 for wbb...

    Obviously, talking about the solution is a lot easier than actually making it happen, but I think the answer is implementing a success factor reduction of scholarships. It would be kinda like what you see in various States' high school sports, except instead of being bumped into a higher more populated HS class, you would lose x amount of scholarships... But if you enjoy seeing Dabo, coach Saban, and Ryan Day every year then carry on
     
  16. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    Even if you get rid of the draft entry requirements, you don’t have the pay to incentivize players to leave early like you do in the nba.

    Most WNBA players make more money playing abroad in the winter (they play year round) than they do in the WNBA. Diana Turasi’s Russian team even paid her not to play in the WNBA season a couple years ago.

    The biggest part of the issue here is societal. There is a far greater emphasis placed on athleticism amongst males than females;again part of that is the financial incentives.

    So immediately we can (hopefully) agree that guys are more likely and more incentivized to play sports than their female counterparts.

    Then, how many guys who are great at sports don’t at least casually play basketball with their friends? How many girls in the same situation? Go to a playground and it’s easy to see that pickup basketball is overwhelmingly dominated by males. More makes play, I’d imagine a higher percentage of “great” athlete males play at some point than women and “great” female athletes.

    Even this casual exposure from a young age not only turns people on to the sport but facilitates skill development as well.

    As you get more participation, especially amongst your better athletes, you have people who become good because they play so much, and you have people who become good because they’re naturally gifted, and all of this is as a result of simply more societal influence at a young ages.

    This effect amplifies as there are more and more leagues, high school conferences and aau programs where players can find stimulating competition.

    I have no scientific evidence to back this up, but I’d also imagine height spectrums play a roll as well.

    Almost Everyone on a d1 women’s basketball team is 5’8-6’4 or so. Most women aren’t 5’8. That immediately eliminates *most* women from d1 consideration. Then, you have people who are 5’10-5’11, very tall women, who get placed in the post in high school, so they never develop the skills needed to play the position they’ll play in college, which is guard and wings. Even for the tall girls, there is volleyball which also values height and athleticism and provides a competing demand for similar athletic traits that men’s basketball does not have.

    The best long term way to fix the issue is to get more girls playing basketball at a young age, and get them playing a lot. The immediate fix is a dramatic cut in scholarship numbers.


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  17. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

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    Ah, looks like I did thanks


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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  18. ButlerProf

    ButlerProf Active Member

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    Interesting take on the topic


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  19. jkcdawgs

    jkcdawgs Well-Known Member

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  20. troggy

    troggy Well-Known Member

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    Any idea why women's D1 basketball programs get 15 scholarships, while the men get 13? Is it to help balance things for Title IX or is there another reason?
     

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