Would You Rather...

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ConnersvilleBulldog, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    To play a little of devil's advocate, BU's return to the final game the following year was a proclamation of their legitimacy and also ranks up with some of college basketball's greatest stories. No doubt most of what has been stated could have been possibility, but it would be highly questionable would have made that second run had BU upset Duke. Still if the shot goes in, we can only imagine what the benefits BU would have been rewarded with. A movie for sure, but more importantly what actor would have portrayed Brad?
     
  2. Crash

    Crash Active Member

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    The two missed opportunities to finish off the 2010 championship were heartbreaking, but I knew we played a damn good game. Knowing we shot 18% in the 2011 championship game made me PUKE!
    Butler shoots 25% and we win the damn game!
    I know this is not the topic, but I was pumped when UConn beat KY. Our D was great against guards that year and we did a great job agains Kemba if I remember. We just could not do anything offensively. When Stigall hit the 3 out of half to put us up 6, I was ready to party. Then we shot something like 10% the rest of the way. That one is a lost opportunity.
     
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  3. Sonbog

    Sonbog Active Member

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    Butler lost the title game because of a wrong decision Mr. Howard made. We have been taught that when the ball is shot from the wing, 70% of the time it will go to the other side of the court. Mr. Howard saw the shot and moved to the other side of the court..., where there was a crowd. I always looked for empty hardwood. If the ball had a 70% chance of going to a crowd, my chance to get it was slim. If it had a 30% chance to come back, and I would be the ONLY MAN THERE, then it would be my ball, but, as I said, Mr. Howard made a quick decision. When the shot went up, he should have immediately boxed the seven footer. A quick rump rock after collecting the rebound would have given him an easy shot to win the game. This would have been an easier shot than either of the two Mr. Haywood took. Mr. Howard did as he had been taught. Take it for what it is worth. It didn't happen.
     
  4. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    This seems like a silly question. One win is better than showing up twice. If we’re worried about legitimacy, I feel like we only needed to establish legitimacy because we lost. If we won, legitimacy is inherent, we have THE play and THE run that all historic moments will be compared to forever.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    seadawg likes this.
  5. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    The fact that it's not unanimous would indicate that it's not a "silly" question. For some it's a no-brainer, for some it's not.
     
  6. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    It can be silly and not unanimous.

    It was silly to suggest Holtmann had lost the team, yet obviously people did.


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    BulldogsFTW likes this.
  7. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

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    I will say that IF everyone here were actually presented with a button that made Hayward’s shot go in in 2010 and also caused Pitt to win the 2011 game, I have a hard time believing people wouldn’t press it, despite what’s been said here.


    Sent from my iPhone, so it’s probably not written all that well
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  8. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Without question anyone would absolutely take a win in 2010 game. BU's chances could have enhanced if the team had faced KY instead of Duke IMO. As it was, playing Duke created some doubt in my mind. In 2011 my confidence was beaming against UCONN. BU simply ran out of gas in the 2nd half. The tank was empty and playing against that type of size, took it's toll. The 2nd half has always too brutal to ever re-watch.
     
  9. dawg767

    dawg767 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Dawgs would have faced WV in 2010 had Duke lost. Would have been KY in 2011 if UConn lost. I especially remember 2011 cuz I had NCAAT futures bets on KY at 40-1 and UConn at 70-1. Unfortunately, tickets were only for $50 and $25 respectively. Fun anyway.
     
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  10. dawg767

    dawg767 Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Sorry, I don't remember it well lol. The bets were 3 years later when UConn played UK in the Final. Jeez.
     
  11. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    I get it, that *you* think it's a silly question - but that doesn't demerit the question or make anyone who considers the other alternative wrong. It's asking people's opinion, so there isn't a wrong answer.

    And for the record, I am probably on the side of win in 2010 at the sake of 2011. But I didn't believe it was a no-brainer - especially after a decade to make peace with the fact that Hayward's shot didn't go in but will still go down as one of the most memorable moments in NCAA history.

    Also, from a money and exposure standpoint, I'm not sure if the difference of winning it all in 2010 vs. coming in second is enough to counterbalance the additional money/exposure the 2011 run generated.

    But in the future, I will try to keep any hypothetical questions about changing the outcome of past events to a minimum amount of silliness.
     
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  12. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    Let’s simplify the situation. Would you rather win one championship or lose two?

    At its very core that’s the decision that we’re facing. Yes there other factors that one would and should consider, but every single one of those factors consider benefits that can be achieved without winning a championship (obviously), and almost certainly without a second championship game. The way we accomplished them just happened to be a second championship game. Gonzaga has achieved more differently. Clearly the second championship game isn’t *necessary* to establish anything at all, it’s just how we did it.

    Winning the championship game is the ONLY way to be the champions, however.

    So would you rather win one championship or lose two?

    Choosing to lose two is just nonsense.


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  13. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

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    Cool man. Your opinion is right. Anyone who even entertains another option is wrong. Got it.

    Again, I said I would probably choose the championship too by the way. But we are in a global pandemic with no sports going on, so I thought it would be an interesting question to throw out there.

    Everyone else was fine stating their opinion and reading everyone else's. You had to be pompous and say your answer was right and anything else is nonsense. I'm sure you're a blast at parties.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
    UDDawg likes this.
  14. nicklas_early

    nicklas_early Active Member

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    Connersville, I appreciate you making this topic. The sports world has come to a grinding halt and we have nothing else to do. The more content that can create conversation/debate the better! I really do not see what the downside is. This is why (if anybody has noticed) I have been posting way more than normal.

    Dead period has now been pushed to May 31, so 2021 recruiting will be a non factor for a while. So all we have right now is transfer talk and hypothetical situations.
     
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  15. butlerguy03

    butlerguy03 Well-Known Member

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    I still say two legitimizes the runs, one could/would be seen as a fluke.

    Getting to the Final Four in college basketball is almost as good as winning the national championship. That's why a lot of schools advertise "11 final fours" - being able to say "2 Final Fours" puts Butler in a much different category than the "1's"

    I know I'm in the minority opinion on this, and it's 20/20. In 2012, I probably would've traded them.
     
    ConnersvilleBulldog likes this.
  16. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    No one is criticizing you for asking the question, but there are a couple of problems that preferring a loss twice has.

    First, What is the counterargument to my position that supports that losing two is better than winning one?

    That it gets legitimized? To who? We had someone say on here like last week that the second run was a fluke. Furthermore, why would a championship need legitimization? That’s something that will be remembered by everyone forever, what about that isn’t enough? A championship is the ultimate legitimization. Finally, if someone wants to say “your championship was a fluke”, let them, you still have your trophy, that’s them being a sore loser.

    Secondly, the benefits of a second run are being talked about as the joy that they brought to people and furthering the program. You know what would also bring joy AND you wouldn’t have to walk away knowing you were so close and lost? Winning a championship! There are many ways to take the program to new heights and Gonzaga, Xavier, Creighton and Wichita State have all been able to accomplish those things without any championship games, which suggests that it’s more of a product of sustained success that accomplishes that goal rather than a couple weeks, so it is a legitimately questionable whether we would have lost anything at all in terms of perception if that second run never happened but we won the year before.


    So now all we have is our feelings of going back to the final four, but we could have had the feeling of winning a championship. SO, why would we think that the feeling of winning a championship is less preferable than the feelings of making it to the game before the championship.


    Call me pompous all you want, but at least come up with a well reasoned explanation as to why I’m wrong if you’re going to do so.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  17. dawgy dawgy

    dawgy dawgy Active Member

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    You have to be an annoying ass professor or grammar teacher who everyone who knows you can’t stand.


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  18. BulldogsFTW

    BulldogsFTW Well-Known Member

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    This is a tough choice for me. The two runs coincided with my Junior and Senior years on campus, and both are such bright, defining memories of my time at BU. I think if it comes down to it, I'd want the Hayward shot to go in. As stated multiple times above, while what we achieved was certainly historic and changed the trajectory of the program and the University as a whole, that shot would have been the largest moment in maybe sports history.
     
  19. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

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    I’m glad you like my grammar. One thing I like about your posts is that they always give me a chance to practice my skills.

    If my posts are not to your liking, feel free to ignore them.



    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
  20. DawgsMD

    DawgsMD Forum Psychiatrist VIP Member

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    Here are my thoughts:
    If we win the championship in 2010, people would say "well you had 2 NBA players" and future NBA coach, so people wouldn't think it was a "fluke" necessarily. I think the 2011 run showed that sure we had Brad Stevens and Mack, but we went back AFTER losing Hayward, which in and of itself showed a lot.
    I think I take the Hayward shot falling. Had it been a different ending (5-7 point win with it not being close at the end) - not a half court launch - I'd probably feel slightly differently, but again, it would immortalize that team if his shot fell.
    Think I'd still take the title, but I do agree with the point that the 2nd FF in a row showed Butler wasn't a George Mason.
     

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