Xavier (11-4, 4-4) vs Butler (7-12, 6-10), Sunday, 2/21, 7:00 PM EST (FS1)

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by ButlerNut, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member


    This is not an “ordinary” down year as you could argue 11-12 and 13-14 were, for the reasons you point out. Help was on the way for 12-13 in Clark and Dunham. Rose was out in 13-14 and our coach was in a bad way.

    This year? The freshmen are promising and we can expect they’ll be better next year, but we can’t fairly expect a jump big enough to make an awful team good, especially when the two best players are seniors and likely gone next year (from what I hear). If this team was rated 70-80 this year, with all these freshmen? Then yeah, I feel ok about things.

    It’s not. Butler is currently rated 131 in kenpom. That’s abysmal. The worst team its had in the last 25 seasons finished 145 (2004-2005). This may end up being the worst Butler team since Clinton’s first term. That’s not “normal”. And the talent isn’t that bad. Things aren’t good under the hood.
  2. kmacker69

    kmacker69 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Was cool as a cucumber until then last 5 mins and we couldn't hit a damn shot to save our lives... Then the fouls and not called fouls got me a little agitated, but we didn't make our shots! Hard to win when we shoot worse than X did tonight... :mad:
    seadawg likes this.
  3. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

    Kinda numb to the final score. We tried hard and basically went with the chuck 3's & hope to get hot strategy. Rough game plan when you have no shooters, but desperate times. Desperate measures.

    Plus, I just finished watching the Clips-Nets game. So my faith in the ability to score in basketball has returned
  4. Danville Bulldog

    Danville Bulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    cracked engine mount, oil leak. bad starter
    willisbrown likes this.
  5. bubby

    bubby Well-Known Member

    The 90's called... they want their sexism back.

    Fat Upper * Area?
    2xDawg and BoyGeoff like this.
  6. Title

    Title Well-Known Member

    it’s almost like inevitably is inevitable.

    the only thing surprising about what Butler is clearly well into becoming is fans had some sort of religious belief it wouldn’t regardless of logic.

    college basketball is mostly predetermined by simply what you spent on it. You get what you pay for
    BoyGeoff likes this.
  7. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I was pretty shocked by how badly Xavier played. And maybe I have some negative bias this season, but as I was watching it didn't really feel like we had anything to do with X's poor play.
    Tentozen and bmradio99 like this.
  8. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Dude, you can’t erroneously predict bad sh*t for 10 years and then pretend you knew a god damn thing when things actually are bad. You have no idea what you’re talking about in this or most other realms.
  9. halftime_floor_sweeper

    halftime_floor_sweeper Well-Known Member

    Which is exactly why your "hot takes" and bone headed analytics are free. Who spends more every season Gonzaga or IU ? Would you like a hundred more examples ?
  10. BUdawgsfan04

    BUdawgsfan04 Active Member

    He is such a likable kid but I just can’t believe he got a d1 offer. No athleticism or skill. Larval should find a d3 school for him to transfer to

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
    cornette33 likes this.
  11. BUdawgsfan04

    BUdawgsfan04 Active Member

    Watch osu and Michigan. Both teams can flat out shoot the rock

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops mobile app
  12. Bernie44

    Bernie44 Active Member

    The main reason we were able to stay in the game last night was going to the zone with Wilmoth on top. X was shooting so poorly from the outside, while we were unable to guard them man to man, that there was no other choice. Only problem was that our coaches would jump out of it too soon and go back to letting them get to the basket. We just do not have the type of players who can create their own shot off the dribble. Some have driving ability even though finishing that drive is an issue. Dribble, dribble until the last 6 seconds in the shot clock is NOT an offense. It only results in poor, last minute shot selections or in 2 instances last night..no shot at all before time expired! Inexcusable. We rarely pick AWAY from the ball (we are the king of horrible ball screens), rarely cut through or curl in the lane for a pass, or back cut to keep defenses honest. We are always running away from the basket toward the 3 point line. The team played hard last night but face it, X, is NOT a very good team this year. Scruggs didn't show and Freemantle was too busy being a (you know what). Even with our depleted personnel, it was a game that we could be in. It was a game we could have even won if our "schemes" were better...that story is getting to be old.
    Tentozen and willisbrown like this.
  13. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    Dude you’re not gonna be able to save the election on ButlerHoops.com.

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  14. dawgs2014

    dawgs2014 Well-Known Member

    What’s my favorite iteration of this tweet? I’m not positive this is it, but it’s in the running-if anyone else has nominees, feel free to add on below:

    January 13, 2019 from this guy’s Twitter: “The thing about Butler is this: they absolutely deserve to be bad. They spend at a rate so below the league standard, they have no claim of anything. Maybe irrelevance & the corresponding drop in interest & attendance will wake some people up to reality.”

    January 12, 2020 (364 days later), also from this guy’s Twitter:
    “Butler is #4 on Pomeroy”

    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
  15. bumba

    bumba Well-Known Member

    You've been saying this for a decade. Last year's team was in the top 16 of seeds before March Madness was cancelled. That had nothing to do with money. Just call it what it is: an inexperienced team without a true scorer that has been decimated by injuries.
    Tentozen, bwesson15, jkcdawgs and 7 others like this.
  16. seadawg

    seadawg Well-Known Member VIP Member

    The plague of poor shooting was to be expected. There was no lack of effort last night. The team fought and scratched. If BU could have taken care of the ball handling a little better, then perhaps the outcome could have different. Unforced turnovers were the key factor last night. So a season that began slow, is now fizzling out all together, mercifully.
  17. TheDawgDub95

    TheDawgDub95 Well-Known Member

    I was happy to see the effort and fight last night but that bothers me. That's something we shouldn't be relieved to see. With that said, we have to have some grace given the $#!+ show this year has been.

    I am starting to question a perceived strength I thought this staff had and that is player development. This is starting to rain on my otherwise optimistic expectations for the future of our program. Our skill and talent level (granted many guys are out) is not good. I have a hard time pointing to someone right now and saying: look how much better he has gotten. Too many examples of guys that have been here, practiced and played meaningful minutes that are limited in what they can do with the basketball.

    Sent from my SM-G977U using Butler Hoops mobile app
  18. willisbrown

    willisbrown Well-Known Member

    I think this is very, very well said. We've heard all year these following phrases "covid! Injuries! Offense is running fine sets we just can't finish! Freshman! Grades!" And now the new debacle. Eventually you have to look inside in a deeper way than these phrases. Something just isn't working.

    And yes, this was going to be a kind of rebuilding year between KB and Sean moving on+mixing in some new faces. That's not a news flash. But it shouldn't be as bad as we've seen it. We have 6 upperclassmen on this team all with high level playing experience (yes Hodges went to etsu but when he was there, they were pretty damn good). We had plenty of minutes coming back to balance out the inexperience plus your so called floor leader is one of them. Except he's spent more time hurt than playing or when playing, we've seen games he seems disinterested.

    My question to y'all is this-when is it time where "the buck stops here" is fair? I'm not the biggest LaVall fan as a head bench coach. He's a fine person and was a friend in school. But eventually, you can add up every excuse you want as fans...soon enough even the true believers have to ask "what the holy hell is going on with this program??"

    The health and injuries are very concerning. There's something wrong there. Sure Galloy wasn't perfect but we've never seen this before in many of our lifetimes (how bad the injuries have been). Where is the mental state of the team? Why does it look like at times upper classmen have checked out? Where is the effort some nights? Why can we not shoot FTs and 3s, but the other team we play night in and night out is wide open from deep on missed assignments? And why is this team seemingly much more soft than teams under Brad and Holt?

    LaVall needs a life line. We all agree he needs an upgraded bench. Maybe that's the key. Hinkle mentioned kenpom rating, we will lose the last 4 games we play so we will surpass the 04-05 team.

    In the same breath you can't eliminate last year and the success we had. So, what is it? You had 4 players returning who contributed to that amazing start and strong season last year. And these are your results? Injuries! Freshmen! Covid!...yeah yeah yeah. But this has not been butler basketball all season. They may finish 150-155ish kenpom...that is absolutely unacceptable for Butler University. As Hinkle said, something is wrong under the hood. And frankly next year may not be much better. In fact...depending on a few factors, it could be worse. And you can only blame "luck" or in this case "bad luck" so much.
    DawgPoundMac and Bernie44 like this.
  19. Baddog

    Baddog Well-Known Member

    I have been one of L.J.'s biggest critics over the past four years. Not in the beginning. I so wanted him to be successful. Nice guy. Butler man. But it is apparent there is a problem. Still, the only criticism I have of him has been limited to between the lines. I don't criticize the players. Example, we lived and died with Baldwin last year and the 1 on 1 offense (when I played a long time ago we would have called him a ball hog....but he wasn't because he was only doing what L.J. wanted) but this was the offense that L.J. wanted and what he put on the court. Weren't we all at times frustrated with Kamar last year? Still maintain we could have been a whole lot better with others involved in a more systematic traditional offense, including NBA level talent McDermott.

    This is L.J.'s team. It's been tough this year, but forget the injuries and suspensions and illnesses for sake of argument. What's left are still his players. At any given time, he has five scholarship players running both the offense and defense that he and his assistants teach and practice and put on the court. Maybe the talent level isn't as high as the opponents. But in most cases, that has nothing to do with how these players run L.J.'s offense or a defense. You try to game plan and make adjustments to meet your talent or lack thereof in an effort to be competitive. Like instead of the fricking undisciplined mess that we witness on both ends of the court. Dribble drive, take your man, launch at will L.J. offense. Any thought to shortening the game and limiting possessions when playing a more talented team? Yep, we only scored 51 points, but that wasn't by any game plan. The game has changed over the years but many of basic basketball fundamentals haven't. It's not just the offense, the defense is a joke. Harris getting backed down by Freemantle and no help? And more than once. And even when the team has been close to full strength, it's the same story. His coaching philosophy or approach or style or whatever it is this year has been reflected in his first 3 years as well where all of his teams have grossly underachieved.

    Big effort last night by the players. That and with X playing like sh!t, we made it a competitive game. Too bad the seven players available didn't have more of a game plan to work with. If you're going to keep him as head coach, and I don't have one problem with that, limit his responsibilities and get him the help he needs. He is NOT a D-1 in-game coach and game planner and strategist. But that's okay, as long long as he allows an assistant to step in. If not, get rid of him.

    If you want to criticize me, how about limiting it to my comments and the performance of his teams between the lines. That's where my criticism lies. Defend what is happening between the lines if you can. Regardless of all the external factors and unfortunate situations that have surrounded the team, does that mean the offense and defense has to suck as bad as it does? Even inexperienced Freshmen can be coached to play smarter and more under control. At first it was a head scratcher to me. L.J. and staff have to view tape. How can they look at that crap and repeat it game after game after game? And where are the in-game adjustments? But that's another story.
    Bernie44 likes this.
  20. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    What scares me is this: does anyone feel really confident that we'll make the tournament next year?

    Consistency (winning, not coaching) has been one of Butler's major selling points. So going 4 straight seasons without playing an NCAA Tournament game wouldn't be great.
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

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