Zags vs Tarheals

Discussion in 'Butler Basketball' started by Staxawax, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $6,277
    There's a big gulf between a "warm congrats" and ****ting all over a great win. As @Bulldawg noted, the scandal has nothing to do with the current team with the limited exception that each of these players had the temerity to come to Chapel Hill in the face of all the negative recruiting related to the so-called "paper classes" and the still-looming specter of an NCAA post-season ban.
     
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  2. Hinkle

    Hinkle Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $7,053
    Ok, I'll revise: Can't really expect another team's message board to not do a little ****ting on the win when it is a program as hate-able as UNC.

    And you're throwing up a straw man. No one hates the players. They hate the program and UNC athletics generally. And that's totally fair.
     
  3. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
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    Too funny not to post:
     
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  4. Bulldawg

    Bulldawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $590
    I'm just going to say that Roy Williams solidified himself as an all time great. The man does not get near the credit he deserves, he's won 42 NCAA tourney games, 3 championships and 8 ACC titles all since 04....and in regards of the academic scandal, imagine if Butler had to recruit championship caliber guys in the midst of that, it's incredibly difficult. Roy was able to find a different kind of player, not this one and done BS and it paid off. The scandal in particular has so much more to do with the football and women's bball teams and the fact it's been dragged on so long is just the NCAAs way of sh***** all over Carolina....well guess who got the last laugh tonight? NCAA games are headed back to NC alongside a brand new banner in the Smith center....


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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  5. UDDawg

    UDDawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $6,780
    Sorry man, but cry us a river.
     
  6. pjohnsto2003

    pjohnsto2003 Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    I grew up in Xavier country but you don't hear me singing their praises.


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
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  7. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $6,277
    Totally a straw man. Absolutely. Wait, what was the next post? Oh yeah, this:

     
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  8. ConnersvilleBulldog

    ConnersvilleBulldog Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $5,454
    A.) I posted the Jon Heyman post because it was funny, as I stated. I don't have anything against any of the individual players on UNC. Hell, if we didn't play them, I wouldn't know half of their players. But like Hinkle stated, I do find their program unlikable - like I do with all blue bloods.

    B.) If you guys want people to kiss Daggum Roy's ring, and talk about how amazing it was to watch UNC defy the odds put in front of them by their own school's scandal then go to a UNC board. Butler has dealt with real stuff the past couple of years. So there isn't going to be much sympathy for a school having to overcome their own cheating scandal.
     
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  9. Bulldawg

    Bulldawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $590
    Just to clarify, not looking for sympathy at all, just trying to help educate y'all on some of the things people really don't know about since all ESPN pushed all weekend was how lucky UNC was not to be banned from the tourney


    Sent from my iPhone using Butler Hoops
     
    NCJon likes this.
  10. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $6,277
    It wasn't funny. It's a cheap shot at the current players, who were in no way, shape, or form involved in the academic problems that ended for men's basketball a decade ago, shortly after Roy Williams raised concerns about his players clustering in the AFAM program.

    I don't care if you like UNC or not. It's no skin off my back. But I will continue to push back on the perception that Tar Heel players don't go to class, or that Roy Williams was complicit in the scandal, whenever other people bring it up. Comparing the Brandon Miller one-year-blip on Butler's radar to the now seven-year-old investigation(s) that weren't the making of the basketball program at UNC is kinda ridiculous, though. I'm glad Butler pulled through it and is, frankly, better off for it. Still just a one-year blip, though.
     
  11. RunningDownRamps

    RunningDownRamps New Member

    Money:
    $34
    Pretty sure Brandon Miller is only a small part of what he is referring to with his second item...
     
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  12. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,653
    Fair enough but cheating on grades, sex, gifts and money does help get you championships and attracts future recruits even if it was under a different regime. Yea it probably was more a football thing since typically football has 6-7 X more players.

    My concern is that schools like Louisville, UCLA, Kentucky and NC will just get their hands slapped. They are too important to the NCAA.
     
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  13. Sidd Finch

    Sidd Finch Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $575
    NCJon--You love UNC. That’s fine, but there's plenty of reasons for why people have a bad taste in their mouth when it comes to UNC. The school had a mechanism in place that generated hundreds of fake “paper classes” in which students got high grades with little work (example: the one paragraph “paper” on Rosa Parks that got an A-). These courses didn’t require attendance. Most had just one paper. It went on for 18 years, and 3100 documented students were involved (officials acknowledge the actual number is almost assuredly far higher). 47% of the students were athletes and yet athletes comprise only 4% of the total student body, so there’s little doubt the primary purpose of this entire enterprise was to boost student-athletes’ grade averages so they could maintain eligibility to play. And that included basketball players. Rashad McCants, the starting PG for the 2005 NC winning team, said academic advisors wrote his term papers and he wouldn’t have remained eligible without those fake class.

    Okay that’s bad enough, but I believe it’s UNC’s post-discovery actions that leave so many people disgusted. So, what happened when this situation came to light? Well, Mary Willingham, a UNC academic advisor, was the one who brought it to the attention of the school. And how did the school respond? For nearly five years, UNC denied those claims. They accused her of lying and they demoted her. She filed a whistle-blower lawsuit and won a $350,000 settlement.

    Now, fast forward to UNC’s response in 2016 to the NCAA allegations. What did they say then? You guys don’t have jurisdiction over this. Stick to sports. Now, that's a decent argument in court, but it’s not going to win you any favors in the court of public opinion.
     
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  14. fdr

    fdr Well-Known Member

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    I think his point is that this group of players was not involved in that scandal, so they shouldn't be on trial, which is fair.
     
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  15. LA-OC-IE

    LA-OC-IE Active Member

    Money:
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    We might have to put an * on this one.
     
  16. kmacker69

    kmacker69 Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
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    UNC players are ok, but their fans... Insufferable comes to mind. (For UNC athletes, that means they are too extreme to bear.) See what I did there... :p NCJon, you can like them all you want and have a good opinion about them, but your not going to get anything good out of this board. I actually live down here and they are as bad as Dook fans, but there are more of them.:eek:;) Thicker skin or maybe stay off of this thread?o_O Just too much ammo available...
     
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  17. Sidd Finch

    Sidd Finch Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $575
    Are you talking about the 2017 National Championship? Nope, not a chance. Now the 2005 one is a whole other story, but I doubt the NCAA touches that either, though UNC really ticked off the NCAA with the lack of jurisdiction defense, so I suppose it's possible.
     
  18. the_speakers_lab

    the_speakers_lab Well-Known Member

    Money:
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    That game last night was the epitome of college basketball
     
  19. NCJon

    NCJon Well-Known Member VIP Member

    Money:
    $6,277
    I don't disagree with any of this, Sidd Finch. You're arguing past the point I've made on this thread - and others - when people other than myself bring up Carolina.

    You will find few people who are more critical of the university's handling of all this than me. Far more so than you were in this post, and publicly to boot. I don't begrudge anyone who is bothered by it.

    And I'll repeat: I wouldn't mind if the 2005 title was vacated because of Rashad McCants' admissions about his own work. Although one should consider McCants' motivations in all of this. Did he take advantage of the situation and to some degree get taken advantage of? Yes. But he also came forward with those claims - some of which do not add up, and which he refused to share directly with either the NCAA's or the university's investigators - expecting that he would get paid.

    What I will say for the umpteenth million time is that Roy Williams did precisely what any of us would want a head coach with integrity to do as soon as he became concerned about the AFAM program. He alerted his superiors to his concerns and asked his assistant responsible for monitoring academics to steer players away from the department, and after he sounded that alarm there were only a couple more basketball enrollments in the paper classes.

    My point is this, yet again: the involvement of the men's basketball team in this mess ended a decade ago. It persisted until it became public in 2011 because of football, women's basketball and soccer. These players, who by all accounts are the kind of people that would make most on this board huge fans if they attended Butler, had nothing to do with it. Tarring them with the sins of Rashad McCants in 2005 is ludicrous.
     
  20. Insane Dawg

    Insane Dawg Well-Known Member

    Money:
    $12,653
    I understand where you are coming from and how you feel about the program. Roy and the current players shouldn't be penalized if they had nothing to do with it. However and this is a big However - vacating a national championship or wins in the case of Boeheim is virtually meaningless. Who cares? The media still count Boeheim's vacated wins and titles when they talk about him. We all know nothing will come of sex for recruits at Louisville. The guy that set that up left and Pitino said he knew nothing of it. Ditto at Baylor. If any of these happened at a mid major the NCAA would come down hard. But when it comes to the big money schools " there is nothing to see here folks". I don't know what the penalty should be but vacating titles is BS. How about the school who lost in that game? They also got screwed. Perhaps a substantial fine on the university in the millions is the answer.
     
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